Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

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Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:47 pm

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NF
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So once again we find ourselves in a contentious situation regarding changes to the group and how they are discussed and implemented. Back in the glory days of the SSX we used to manage to limit ourselves to one massive blow out a year at the most but nowadays the community seems to fall apart every couple of months over one issue or another.

This is not the sign of a healthy community.

In fact I would go a step further and say that, currently, we are dieing as a group. Can anyone even remember when the last new person joined us? When the forums saw more than 4 or 5 active posters?

Changes are needed and we should be grateful that we have an enthusiastic few who are willing to push these changes through. However the way new ideas are decided upon and implemented has been less than ideal, resulting in a lot of contention within the group. This needs to be addressed.

To prevent this happening again can we have a sensible discussion regarding how we would like potential changes to happen in the future?

For clarity the type of decision I am talking about here is any decision that will impact another member significantly. i.e. any changes that involve the structure, labeling or ethos of The Shattered Star or the use of a particular service, platform to support the community (i.e. chat, forums, VOIP).

If it does then it should be tabled formally before ANY changes are made. As a proposed structure for tabling an idea I suggest the following:

[*]A thread is created in the members forum detailing the idea with a breakdown of the positives and negatives.
[*]We allow a week for other members to respond to the idea. (For larger decisions perhaps opt for a month for people to respond)
[*]At the end of the week/month a vote is started and is left open for a week. Wording of voting options should use a neutral, unbiased tone and cover as many of the discussed options as feasible.
[*]The results are confirmed by the original poster who will then outline their plan for implementation of the agreed option.
[*]For an idea to be acted upon I propose a clear majority is required - 51% of higher.
[*] Any trials of new systems/procedures should be clearly outlined in advance taking care to state clearly what will be tested, what is required from members, the length of the trial, and how it will be assessed at the end of the trial.

The above guidelines are, of course, open for discussion and I would welcome input as to whether they are appropriate.

I appreciate that this does not solve our current Discord/IRC issue (this thread is not intended for that discussion to be had here) but I hope it will head off future problems when new ideas are put forward.
NF

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:50 pm

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I agree with the above completely, and think that it would go a long way to solving the problems we've had in this area recently.

The only thing I'd add, given experience with the Discord/IRC issue, is that if we're talking about issues such as chat systems where trialling or testing apply, proposals for the format and extent of that (and indeed, what it will require of members, and the effect it will have) be detailed as part of the original pros/cons thread BEFORE anything is implemented.

That way we can avoid the kind of issues we've had this time, as everything will be clearly laid out and open for debate before we march headlong into anything. We do trails rarely, so it may end up never applying, but that's all I'd add :)
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

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Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:15 pm

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Thank Anny - Totally agree and I have updated the list to include your points.
NF

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:40 pm

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All perfectly reasonable but with respect, I do and I don't agree :)

Given our lower numbers, sometimes I think it's better to just go ahead and do something. Depending what it is ofc. Not have to have a lengthy discussion on whether we will or we won't before hand, to then do or don't do what was put forward (or vote on it), and then to follow it with another poll to decide what the outcome is to be when we have. For some things this is called for, I just don't think it's necessary for everything.

To use these two guidelines against how I set Discord up for example;
  • A thread is created in the members forum detailing the idea with a breakdown of the positives and negatives.
  • We allow a week for other members to respond to the idea. (For larger decisions perhaps opt for a month for people to respond)
I know some people have been less than happy about how it was set up but I still don't think a thread and discussion was really needed before doing so. Whatever anyone else has said, no permanent change had been made and I was only calling for other people to come & try it, and then share their thoughts on here. Seeing how it compares to IRC and deciding whether we would want to entertain the idea of moving to it as a group (rather than using both) could only really be decided by people physically going on there, trying it and judging for themselves. Sure I could have opened that up for discussion and possible poll first to gauge whether people actually wanted and were willing to come and try with me, but that's all I'd been asking. To come and try it. If I'd been pushing for people to permanently leave our IRC channel and move to Discord for good then yes, I'd have have done just this and put a proposal forward but for me to just go ahead and set something up for us all to try and go from there? I don't think there was any better way than to go ahead and set it up and get people on there to actually try it.

I could outline what I now view as the positives of Discord all I want and could have put forward a proposal to try it first, yes. We would likely have had some people who were perfectly happy to stick with IRC for another 10 years, others who were up for trying something new which may be of benefit to this place and maybe others who weren't fussed either way but until people actually tried both for themselves, it wouldn't have made a different how much talking we did, it would still have been better to just go ahead and try it. Perhaps I went about it the wrong way but for someone to say "yes, let's use this" or "let's just stick with IRC", people had to try both. IRC wasn't going anywhere and in this case I thought less talk and more action was the right approach :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:08 pm

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Apologies for being a bit blunt here MS but it is very clear to me that the approach of doing without discussing is not working. I make this the 3rd time in the last 6 months where an idea has been acted upon without discussion and people have ended up being upset. We simply cannot sustain this approach and expect people to stay engaged with the group, let alone encourage new people to join us.

The above proposal simply forces us to take a more reasoned approach where people can take part in the discussion before it is implemented. I agree that it shouldn't be used for everything just when common sense tells us that including everyone else in the decision is the right thing to do.

Anyway this is a just a proposal for the group to mull over, amend or dismiss. Just thought it would be a sensible way of preventing the monthly meltdowns.
NF

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:06 pm

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Twitter-gate will be one of those 3 I imagine. We have a new group twitter again which anyone is welcome to access and contribute to and that was brought about by me going ahead and changing the login to the other account which only I had been using and building up by myself, as me doing that pissed people off as I hadn't brought it up for discussion first or said I was doing it. What's happened when we did open things up again though and discuss stuff? Exactly what I knew would happen. Besides some automatic tweets which have come across from a couple of you streaming on Twitch occasionally and the odd tweet from someone like esd, STR twitter does get used by more than just me now but it still doesn't get contributed to and ran as a group effort, not like it should be. It's also nowhere near as active as it was before when I was handling things by myself like the group had allow to happen. Even the person who brought that all to the forums doesn't use it despite being given the login when it went up. Never has.

We talked, people wanted an open-accessed group account but when it comes down to it, not everyone is prepared to act on it. I knew they wouldn't be, otherwise why I had been doing it by myself all that time when the previous account was open? We would have been better just to leave me to what I was doing rather than creating issues where there weren't any and dragging that out into discussions and drama which have ultimately changed nothing. Infact they've kinda gone backwards as the group run account people wanted and now have again isn't run as such, which it wasn't before. Tis why we ended up in that situation in the first place of me taking it on by myself and making sure it was managed properly and got used regularly. All I'm saying here is that discussing things isn't always an approach that works either.... it's a difficult one :)

We could have talked about trying Discord first before I set it up, sure, but without people actually going on there to try it none of us could have argued for one over the other or made any kind of judgement calls. I thought it was better just to set it up and do just that. Why talk about it instead of just doing it? It was only a trial and trying it is the only way any of us could have determined which we preferred. This was my thinking anyway. Some things may read good or bad on paper but until you actually try them, you just don't know. There are still some people who haven't tried it but as I said, I won't push it. Just think it's a shame if they never do.

I seem to be the one who has inadvertently caused some of these issues though so as I said in the other thread, don't expect me to cause anymore by going ahead and doing things without bringing them up for discussion first. Discord will be the last thing I do that with, off my own back :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:44 am

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As a proposed structure for tabling an idea I suggest the following:

[*]A thread is created in the members forum detailing the idea with a breakdown of the positives and negatives.
...

When the forums saw more than 4 or 5 active posters?

(Yes, I flipped the order of these two quotes.)

I see a flaw in developing a sort of legislative process that utilizes a communications medium that is not being frequented by the people who are supposed to be involved in the process.

Frankly, with the group being as inactive as it is, I'm rather on board with running ideas past the current Arbiter, implementing them or not based on his/her judgement, and then allowing the Arbiter election process function as a referendum on retaining or rolling back changes. This keeps the process of change from becoming too bogged down and allows for a period of time to pass before policies are judged as successes or failures. It also invites more voices to provide feedback on the changes of the past year, since Arbiter elections are regularly-timed events that are announced to and request participation from all members.

Let's keep the process simple and better utilize the democratic systems already built into the organization.

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:50 am

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BlueFlames wrote:
As a proposed structure for tabling an idea I suggest the following:

[*]A thread is created in the members forum detailing the idea with a breakdown of the positives and negatives.
...

When the forums saw more than 4 or 5 active posters?

(Yes, I flipped the order of these two quotes.)

I see a flaw in developing a sort of legislative process that utilizes a communications medium that is not being frequented by the people who are supposed to be involved in the process.

Frankly, with the group being as inactive as it is, I'm rather on board with running ideas past the current Arbiter, implementing them or not based on his/her judgement, and then allowing the Arbiter election process function as a referendum on retaining or rolling back changes. This keeps the process of change from becoming too bogged down and allows for a period of time to pass before policies are judged as successes or failures. It also invites more voices to provide feedback on the changes of the past year, since Arbiter elections are regularly-timed events that are announced to and request participation from all members.

Let's keep the process simple and better utilize the democratic systems already built into the organization.


I can see where you are coming from here but not sure I agree with the conclusion. From what I can tell the entire active membership resides across forums and/or chat. In the past there hasn't been any problems posting something to the forums and then, if important, nudging those in chat to take a look. I'd therefore argue that the entire active membership is at least aware of the important discussions. Not sure there is much more we can do to garner more engagement from more people?

Ref the arbiter making decisions I really see this as going against the core values of the Shattered Star. No one person should have that much power over the group. I appreciate that I can step in on contentious issues and make a decision for the group already (as done recently) but this is meant to be a rare occasion and only to be used when discussion is not moving towards a resolution.
NF

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:48 pm

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NF wrote:In the past there hasn't been any problems posting something to the forums and then, if important, nudging those in chat to take a look.
Problem is, the community was much more active back then and we were also much bigger. We were dealing with a lot more people, there was a lot more going on and we were always gaining new blood. Hashing things out as a community was often needed then and was easier to do.

I mean, if we had done this:
[*]At the end of the week/month a vote is started and is left open for a week. Wording of voting options should use a neutral, unbiased tone and cover as many of the discussed options as feasible.

We'd have spent all this time simply deciding whether we should even try Discord, when in the end (if we had decided to lol), each of us would still have needed to try it in order to see what we thought of it. Just seems like we sometimes make things more difficult than they really need to be instead of just getting on with shit. Really, where was the harm in just going ahead and trying it?

NF wrote:No one person should have that much power over the group.

This may not be a popular opinion but right now I think we'd be better off if we did (and just for the record, I don't mean me). We have someone to arbitrate (ty, NF :)), we have people who just sit in the back and we have our cheerleaders but we don't really have a "leader". Someone who knows what they're doing when it comes to growing a community and can just say what goes, in what they believe to be in the best interest of everyone and the future of the group. Some people here are too resistant to change but sometimes you need to change with the times or try new things just to keep up with those you're trying to attract and keep yourself relevant & appealing. Why do we now have pages across social media? Twitch? a webpage and forums which is designed to suit not only multiple desktop resolutions but handhelds too? We've adpoted things over the years... just because it makes total sense to do so and we haven't always dragged those out in discissions or polls to decide whether we did or not. I strongly believe (after trying it for over a week now) that Discord is one of these changes we should officially adpot as our new main but if some people want to stay off there, behind on IRC and not even try it, then I ain't gonna stop them. I do think it's another move into the present though.

I'm going to use WoW:EU as another example. What happened when we brought those decisions to the greater community to decide and vote on? It killed the group. The people leading that group should have gone ahead with what they wanted to try and what they believed to be the best approach for them all, even if it wasn't something we would have normally done as a group. If it hadn't worked out? Well, they would have been given that chance to try. Maybe similar would have happened? We don't know, but what we do know is that we lost our biggest and most active group from what we did do.

My brother often plays DOTA 2 with a group of friends (who are bigger in numbers than we are too). One day it was just decided by a couple of them (or maybe even one) that they were moving from one voice comms system to another as they thought it would be better for them. No discussions, no polls, they just let everyone else know what was happening. Not even to "try" it like I was encouraging with Discord. Know what my brother did? and it might sound absolutely crazy. He went and installed it.

They're friends like we're supposed to be. no hidden agendas. Tbirds comment (about being forced) in that other thread upset me as the only reason I was encouraging him and Anny to come and try Discord with the rest of us is because I do care about people here and to have left them back there without doing so would have gone against my nature.


I don't really know what the solution to everything is but whilst some may not have liked the way Discord was handled, it is also clear to me that discussions & polls aren't always the best approach either, and can be destructive. Sometimes it's better just to act and try things first, imo.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:18 pm

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M.Steiner wrote:We'd have spent all this time simply deciding whether we should even try Discord, when in the end (if we had decided to lol), each of us would still have needed to try it in order to see what we thought of it. Just seems like we sometimes make things more difficult than they really need to be instead of just getting on with shit. Really, where was the harm in just going ahead and trying it?


First off I never understood the need for urgency - why rush decisions? (Especially over Xmas and New Year when most of us are off doing Xmas/New Year things). Would it really have mattered if we had talked about it for a week beforehand? Whatever the timescales it was handled badly - creating unnecessary angst in the group.

M.Steiner wrote:This may not be a popular opinion but right now I think we'd be better off if we did (and just for the record, I don't mean me). We have someone to arbitrate (ty, NF :)), we have people who just sit in the back and we have our cheerleaders but we don't really have a "leader". Someone who knows what they're doing when it comes to growing a community and can just say what goes, in what they believe to be in the best interest of everyone and the future of the group.


Out of curiosity how would you propose that the group decides whether we should elect a "leader"? A proposal and vote?

Appreciate I am taking the mick a little here but, seriously, this is a fundamental change to the group - how do you propose we raise this as a possibility and decide whether it is the right thing to do?

M.Steiner wrote:I don't really know what the solution to everything is but whilst some may not have liked the way Discord was handled, it is also clear to me that discussions & polls aren't always the best approach either, and can be destructive. Sometimes it's better just to act and try things first, imo.


There is always going to be strongly differing opinions on both sides of an argument - the idea of discussions and votes is to formalise how we approach the problem and resolve it. Everyone goes in to it knowing how the ultimate decision will be made. No grey areas and no one person dictating everything down from up high. This is how you get people on board - not make a decision and then try and get them to tow the line after the fact.

Personally I can see your thought process behind an elected leader very clearly and it is a solution, one I do not necessarily disagree with completely, I just think that before this road is trod we make damn sure it is the only/best solution for STR. I don't think we are there yet but I appreciate that others may disagree. Is there a half way house here? I don't know.

Out of curiosity what other changes do you think need to be made that would benefit from a leader pushing them through?
NF

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:17 pm

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NF wrote:First off I never understood the need for urgency - why rush decisions?

There was no rush, I just didn't see trying something as something we really needed to spend any amount of time discussing rather than just doing it and seeing what we thought. Then discussing and sharing our thoughts, which is what I'd been asking people to do. We'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid :)

Just to be clear, I wasn't posting the idea of a "leader" as a proposal for us to somehow consider so much, rather just to disagree with your comment that no one person should have that much power. It's not something I've really thought a lot about but if I'm honest, just given our numbers and activity levels I would not have been against such a thing. Someone who knows what they're doing, knows how to run a group site & forum too, and can put their ideas into action straight away if they feel they will benefit the group.

If they thought Discord was the right move forward for us as a way to bring us up to date and make chatting with us more accessible for folk, and could just go ahead and set that up without causing chaos? Or if they thought changing the way we do this, or that would help and could say this is what we're gonna do now. Someone who could just implement forum features for us when they thought of them or other members of the group thought they would be useful to us (Twitter embeds are one thing I've suggested previously and I know you suggested some other changes to the main site which may benefit us and visitors too, NF. This is not meant as a complaint towards Anny btw as I know he's generally very busy. Just using it as an example and I wouldn't know how to implement such changes even if I were able to.)

Just someone who could act on his/her ideas with the groups best interests at heart and with the power to do without being bitched at.
The group had an open group account for Twitter, the group didn't use it and so I took it upon myself to manage it and build it up by myself. No discussion, I just did it. I'd say it became our most active page on the net too.. The problem with that only came when I (a year later) decided to change the login for it & some people wanted to go back to how the account was meant to be run - open to anyone who wanted and ran by all of us. After having that all out we have an open group account again, does the community use and contribute to it as a group? Not really. Does the person who first asked for access after all that time (and thus made the fact that I had changed said login common knowledge) use the group account now? No. I mean, what was the point??

Not suggesting myself as the person to be in such a position either btw, and still not putting this out there as a proposal. Infact I'm not even sure who we could put in such a position now, given how we've got. Just speaking aloud. It has been made clear to me that people don't always agree with the way I go about things so <censored> that heh. Just using that as an example. I wasn't a leader when I did that but sometimes I think it's good to have someone who will just step up and take action like that otherwise nothing would ever change or get done. I did. Maybe it would be good to have someone who had the power to make such decisions and just have everybody follow in the interest of the group? I dunno... Just if the way we have been doing things has always worked so well for us, why is this the case:
NF wrote:Can anyone even remember when the last new person joined us? When the forums saw more than 4 or 5 active posters?

?

New things should be tried (what they are (other than Discord as I was trying to encourage), I don't know), I just think we need to act more and talk less as a group in general really, and not be so opposed to change which may benefit us (well, not really talk less but you know what I'm trying to say :p). Every decision we make doesn't need to be dragged out before hand imo, especially decisions which just call for trying something new and may not even be a permanent change. That we decide later. Just my opinion :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:48 pm

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Can I ask where the notion that we're collectively so opposed to change that will benefit us has come from? QD kinda said the same thing in the other thread, and I don't really see where it's come from.

If what you've taken from the Discord situation, and indeed the Twitter one too, is that people are unhappy and objecting because change has been proposed, I'm really not sure that you could have gotten a more wrong end of the stick. People got upset and objected because of the perceived (because I'm sure you didn't mean to do it, even if that's how it came across) "<censored> you, this is how it is" attitude from various people involved.

I'm all for us considering and exploring change if it's not just change for change's sake. I'm not ok with change being dictated down to us without any say, and people using forcible tactics to try and push things through as has been done in the last week. I was fine with the idea of us trying Discord until those tactics started.

If you think this situation came about because you didn't start a week long debate before creating a Discord channel, you've not understood why people are upset at all. Creating chance for discussion will mean people have less opportunity to get upset if we do it right.
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Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:06 pm

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Anubis wrote:Can I ask where the notion that we're collectively so opposed to change that will benefit us has come from? QD kinda said the same thing in the other thread, and I don't really see where it's come from.

Just speaking generally really, and I think everyone has probably been guilty of it at some point over the years, even me. (I'll come back to this in a few though). I've disliked social media for years for example and never wanted to use it but whilst I still never wish to entertain Facebook, I've taken to Twitter and use it regularly. I've even made the step of getting a mic for voice chat - Due to my own personal issues & struggles which I won't go into on here, I have always had a problem with voice chat (still do), which some of you will know. Phones are very much the same for me too. I've yet to actually use the mic, but I will in my own time :)

Anubis wrote:People got upset and objected because of the perceived (because I'm sure you didn't mean to do it, even if that's how it came across) "<censored> you, this is how it is" attitude from various people involved.

I'm all for us considering and exploring change if it's not just change for change's sake. I'm not ok with change being dictated down to us without any say, and people using forcible tactics to try and push things through as has been done in the last week. I was fine with the idea of us trying Discord until those tactics started.

If any of my comments on here, IRC & Discord have come across as "<censored> you, this is how it is" in the events surrounding Discord then yes, I've certainly never meant that and I can only apologise if they have. I always tried to maintain that we were trying it, and trying as best I could do encourage & promote others to come & do that with us so we could then discuss how we felt about it in the thread. Any "forceful" tactics were not meant as such either like I've said before. If I didn't care about people like you (or Tbird who called it such) I'd have just left you both sitting on IRC and not said a word but that's not me. I felt bad knowing so many of us were in Discord (even people who were on both), except you two who were only on IRC. Was just trying to be friendly and keep us all together but I guess I was being too pushy with it. I can only say sorry for that :)

I said I wouldn't force it now and I won't but neither of you have been on Discord & tried it still, and I imagine both of you are still frequenting IRC. If that's because both of you are unhappy with how I personally went about it and have put away any idea of you trying it because of that, then I can only apologise again. It would however be a shame to purposefully choose not to try something because of how it was handled, when it could actually be a change for the better. It would just be sad to think of both of you remaining on IRC and never doing so and whilst I wouldn't say this was being opposed to change.. perhaps it is more stubborn or unforgiving?

If neither of you have been wanting to try it due to what someone else has said or done, then please don't hold that against me or the idea that I put into action and was asking for people to try & share their feedback on. If it's just me, see above.

Besides either of these, if part of the reason (for one or the other of you) is also because you're happy with IRC and aren't really interested in trying Discord anyway (maybe using the above to back this up?) then yes, I would call that being reistant to change and trying new things, yeah. I'd still love for you both to give it a try and see what you think but as I say, I won't push it :)

When it comes down to it though, NF did have a point. I attempted to keep everyone together (whether I went about that the wrong way or not) rather than have us split over 2 different systems but at the end of the day it will play out by itself and people will naturally go where the conversation is.
And yes, I personally think that will end up being Discord when all is said and done. Discord offers the same as IRC but more, and IRC is a declining format. It's also much easier to get people in there with us and other gamers are soon going to be far more familiar with seeing Discord being used around other gaming places than IRC if they're not already. Discord brings us in to the present. We shall see though...
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:41 pm

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M.Steiner wrote:If any of my comments on here, IRC & Discord have come across as "<censored> you, this is how it is" in the events surrounding Discord then yes, I've certainly never meant that and I can only apologise if they have. I always tried to maintain that we were trying it, and trying as best I could do encourage & promote others to come & do that with us so we could then discuss how we felt about it in the thread. Any "forceful" tactics were not meant as such either like I've said before. If I didn't care about people like you (or Tbird who called it such) I'd have just left you both sitting on IRC and not said a word but that's not me. I felt bad knowing so many of us were in Discord (even people who were on both), except you two who were only on IRC. Was just trying to be friendly and keep us all together but I guess I was being too pushy with it. I can only say sorry for that :)

I said I wouldn't force it now and I won't but neither of you have been on Discord & tried it still, and I imagine both of you are still frequenting IRC. If that's because both of you are unhappy with how I personally went about it and have put away any idea of you trying it because of that, then I can only apologise again. It would however be a shame to purposefully choose not to try something because of how it was handled, when it could actually be a change for the better. It would just be sad to think of both of you remaining on IRC and never doing so and whilst I wouldn't say this was being opposed to change.. perhaps it is more stubborn or unforgiving?

If neither of you have been wanting to try it due to what someone else has said or done, then please don't hold that against me or the idea that I put into action and was asking for people to try & share their feedback on. If it's just me, see above.

Besides either of these, if part of the reason (for one or the other of you) is also because you're happy with IRC and aren't really interested in trying Discord anyway (maybe using the above to back this up?) then yes, I would call that being reistant to change and trying new things, yeah. I'd still love for you both to give it a try and see what you think but as I say, I won't push it :)

When it comes down to it though, NF did have a point. I attempted to keep everyone together (whether I went about that the wrong way or not) rather than have us split over 2 different systems but at the end of the day it will play out by itself and people will naturally go where the conversation is.
And yes, I personally think that will end up being Discord when all is said and done. Discord offers the same as IRC but more, and IRC is a declining format. It's also much easier to get people in there with us and other gamers are soon going to be far more familiar with seeing Discord being used around other gaming places than IRC if they're not already. Discord brings us in to the present. We shall see though...

This is probably better in the other thread, but I'll answer here since it's here.

I know you didn't mean it dude, else I wouldn't have been as standoffish as I was over the issue. In retrospect maybe I should have said something sooner but it is what it is. And as for trying Discord, like I said in the other thread I've not decided what I'll do over that yet. For now, I am still maintaining my absence from there in protest of how the situation has been handled - I will deliberate on it further when I feel my point is adequately made.
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:24 am

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M.Steiner
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Aye, sorry for going slightly off topic :)

How about this... Similar suggestion to what BF made, though not exactly. How about if someone has an idea like this in the future, they run it by the Arbiter first but to decide whether they think said idea is okay to go straight ahead with, or whether it calls for a community discussion first?

I suppose NF and I would have disagreed on whether or not the trying of Discord really needed to be discussed first, but referring to the Arbiter may still be better than just making 1 rule for all or something - that being everything gets discussed and/or voted on as some of us may feel something should, whilst others may not feel the need. The Arbiter can decide.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:25 am

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Isileth
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Ok well quite a lot has been said both above and in the other thread and I'm honestly far too lazy to start going through and quoting everyone so I will just spew some thoughts out that I hope you can make some sense of.

To start with I feel it best to make clear the problems that I have and just as importantly the things I have absolutely no problem with and want to encourage and support (and hopefully some of this applies to the others as well).

Most importantly I want to state that having active, passionate members who drive the community forwards are more important now than ever and none of these discussions should ever be taken as an attack on the person or the effort they put in to this group. If we had another 10 members like MS we would be in awesome shape. Looking back at how some of our little group discussions have gone in the recent past even from my side of things it feels like he is getting constantly shat upon so I cant imagine how it feels from his side of things. So I just want to take this moment to say that we do love you (in an extremely platonic way) and that you make this group much better by being part of it and even better when you strive to drag us kicking and screaming out the 90's.

So my problems with how things have been handled are not the person nor is it the subjects of change themselves. It has been how they have been approached/implemented and the general form discussion of them has taken.

To use the current discord discord (Hey I made a joke to lighten the mood!) a lot that stems from the fact a lot of decisions were made in advance of any sort of community involvement. The most damning of those being the comments about people setting deadlines for when they would quit irc even before the original thread had been made. Even without that there have been several others stating that they have made up their mind and wont be going back to irc even before most members had tried discord. And to be clear here I'm not suggesting anyone should be able to tell you what you can or cannot do but it did rather feel like an ultimatum where if everyone else didn't agree what remains of our active community would be further split. That I think is where the most unease with this process stems from. The fact that it did come across as a few individuals who had decided for the entire group long before everyone had a chance to really discuss anything.

Onto the idea of the Arbiter taking a more commanding role that's not something I would support. Not only does it go against what I feel this group is about but also quite frankly I don't see how it would solve these problems.

I also don't feel we need to go quite so bureaucratic as to suggest every decision requires multiple votes with set waiting periods and arbiter oversight with people arguing for and against each and every slight change. Obviously major decisions should still warrant a group vote, especially to finalize things like the name change.

So what do I actually feel is suitable? Honestly just to have a genuine discussion take place beforehand and not to feel that the decision has already been made or that there is any pressure or ultimatum hanging over the choice. In this case having a trial seems perfectly reasonable but it stops being a trial when a few people basically force the decision by declaring they wont be coming back. I think its pretty clear the group doesn't have the sort of user base where we can afford to start splitting up like that so its a pretty strong threat.

The sad thing is this could so easily have been something cool that gave a boost to the group if it had been handled just a little bit differently. I really don't see there being much opposition to discord itself and had it felt like a free choice as I said in the other thread it would have received near unanimous support. We just need to make sure when we do things we do it together as a group.

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:56 pm

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NF
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Just too add I don't support the arbiter making unilateral decisions either.. not what people voted me in for and not a job I want to do.

M.Steiner wrote:How about this... Similar suggestion to what BF made, though not exactly. How about if someone has an idea like this in the future, they run it by the Arbiter first but to decide whether they think said idea is okay to go straight ahead with, or whether it calls for a community discussion first?


I'd stand by my previous comment further up this thread that if it is an idea that will impact another member, even slightly, then it should be discussed up front - that should be the guide stick. Of course if people are unsure then I would be happy to be a sounding board for them.
NF

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:24 pm

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M.Steiner
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NF wrote:I'd stand by my previous comment further up this thread that if it is an idea that will impact another member, even slightly, then it should be discussed up front

This is quite broad though? What you're saying here is that the person should ask themselves whether their action will impact another member and if it does, it needs to be discussed up front as a community, right? If some of us are likely to think differently on what we believe will or will not impact/affect another user (and then call for a discussion as you say), we'll either end up discussing every single thing we do or we'll still have times when someone doesn't think it will so much, and thus believes it doesn't need discussing. No? I mean, most decisions made around here, however small (even behind the scenes) affect someone or other as we're a group?

So without applying that rule to everything (which would be ridiculous) or using our own judgement (which I've already been told I was wrong with Discord), how do we decide that other than running everything past the current arbiter? - Which yeah, also seems silly when typing it out like that.

I've been meaning to remove Stracius as the leader of the general forum mods for a while for example, as he hasn't logged in since 2013. Then swapping some different members in there instead. By that rule, this would come under your "impact another member, even slightly" would it not? But it doesn't really need a discussion does it? Do you get me? :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:25 am

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NF
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Yes "I get you" and you seem to be making this unnecessarily difficult - a little common sense is all that is being asked for here. Taking away moderation rights from a member who hasn't been here since 2013 is obviously not worthy of a group discussion.

I broadly outlined my thoughts in the opening post:

For clarity the type of decision I am talking about here is any decision that will impact another member significantly. i.e. any changes that involve the structure, labeling or ethos of The Shattered Star or the use of a particular service, platform to support the community (i.e. chat, forums, VOIP).


Happy for people to disagree, amend etc but for me, personally, that seems a reasonable summary of subjects that are likely to cause issue if not handled correctly.
NF

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:11 am

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M.Steiner
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Was rather referring to giving rights to other (active) members in that forum rather than just removing Strac who hasn't visited since 2013. Both are a non-issue ofc and it was just a quick example I thought of off the top of my head but by your wording, doing that would:
NF wrote:impact another member, even slightly,

Would it not?

But you've also said:
NF wrote:impact another member significantly.

You're using two different extremes in your ruling there so it's either one or the other. I'm not meaning to make this unnecessarily difficult as you say, just making sure I understood you because:
NF wrote:a little common sense

is what Discord and my handling of it felt like to me :)


Anyway, will let some other people chime in.


Isileth wrote:Most importantly I want to state that having active, passionate members who drive the community forwards are more important now than ever and none of these discussions should ever be taken as an attack on the person or the effort they put in to this group. If we had another 10 members like MS we would be in awesome shape. Looking back at how some of our little group discussions have gone in the recent past even from my side of things it feels like he is getting constantly shat upon so I cant imagine how it feels from his side of things. So I just want to take this moment to say that we do love you (in an extremely platonic way) and that you make this group much better by being part of it and even better when you strive to drag us kicking and screaming out the 90's.

I know it won't have been intended by other people but I'll be honest, it has sometimes felt like people were spending more time making an issue out of something I'd done or how I'd done it rather than being grateful and moving forward. Not that I ever expect a pat on the back or anything but just to see someones efforts are actually appreciated rather than it resulting in complaints? Has felt like a slap in the face at times, yeah. I'll always do what I can for the group as I've never been one to just sit back and do/say nothing but I have questioned myself at times as to how long I can keep doing that when it often feels like I can't do right for doing wrong. So this does mean a lot, thank you for that Isi :thumb:
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Proposal: How to propose new ideas..

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:03 am

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NF
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Fair enough on the differing language. That was not intended. Let's fall on the side of significantly.

Also just to clarify this is not a "ruling". This proposal is from just NF and not Arbiter NF.
NF


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