Double Fine Adventure & Kickstarter General

[Anubis]

Double Fine Adventure

Guessing most of you have heard about this already, since it's been the big news story of the last week for a large portion of the industry, but I figured I'd post it here anyway since it is a pretty amazing story.

As I'm sure most of you know, last week Double Fine asked the community to help them fund a classic adventure game for $400k over Kickstarter. As I write this, about a week later, the community had pledged nearly $1.9m. It's a pretty amazing story, especially when you consider that over half of that total was raised in the first 24 hours.

For a long time fan of the adventure genre, and an equally big fan of Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert, this is fantastic news for me personally - but more than that, it's fantastic news for the industry as a whole I would say, provided it can be replicated in future. Already Obsidian have publically mused about their own campaign (which got a lot of requests for a Planescape Torment sequel), and it can only be a good thing if talented developers are able to develop more creative "niche" games that publishers won't touch. If nothing else it will promote quieter genres and new ideas, and hopefully free up more talent in the industry.

It also means that the game is already a success. They've basically completely covered all development costs already, so any sales they may of he game will be pure profit that goes directly to them. That's quite the significant change in the traditional model, where some games never reach profit and developers see very little for their work. Again, something I would consider very positive for the industry.

I think it's an effort everyone should be at least aware of

Any games people would like to see if similar efforts take off? Or views on what impact the project may have?

[M.Steiner]

I think this is a fantastic idea and something everyone should at least consider backing. Not only do people get to help fund projects like this themselves, cutting out the middleman, having the money go directly to the developers themselves and have them make said game on their own terms but we have the rare opportunity of closely following the development of this bit by bit from start to finish. The most we usually get to see behind closed doors are the odd developer diary or "making of" after a game has released. Quite an exciting project to follow
Only thing with kickstarter funds like this though is that I can only ever see them being good for funding lower budget, niche or indie titles like this. It started out as a $400k game and sure they've exceeded that by a massive amount which is brilliant and the extra cash will be going to add extra voice acting, platforms & languages but at the end of the day it's a point & click adventure game which they're planning to release in only 8 months time. 1.9m, whilst seriously impressive, would be nowhere near enough to fund the development of an average video game and it's never going to reach those kind of figures either.

Wishful thinking I would say a fund should be started for Shenmue 3 which is probably the most deserving game series in need of a sequel ever, imo. Fans have been waiting nearly a decade for a continuation of the story but because the first 2 games cost around $70mil (and that was years ago!) and they had disappointing sales it has never materialised, yet. A project like this would be a lovely idea to get the ball rolling on that because sales/publishers and all of that could be put aside and they wouldn't have to worry about poor sales so much this time but thinking realistically I just can't see it happening. And if it did, even considering that and with the amount of fans I can imagine that would flock to the site and start throwing money at it I just can't see it reaching the kind of budget a game like that would actually cost to make nowadays and a budget for it to stay true to the originals and be how a 3rd chapter in the series should really be like and fully deserves.
I can however see this becoming a trend for smaller scale "niche" games as you say. Providing Double Fine follow through with all of this it's already been a big success and other developers will no doubt be interested in trying something similar. Thinking about this... how about a kickstarter fund for KK & Neocron 3? hehe. That being said.. NC1/2 never really had the amount of players it should have had or met its true potential. No idea what an MMO like that would cost to make actually but whether there'd be enough people out there interested in paying is one thing..

[M.Steiner]

Thinking about this... how about a kickstarter fund for KK & Neocron 3? hehe. That being said.. NC1/2 never really had the amount of players it should have had or met its true potential. No idea what an MMO like that would cost to make actually but whether there'd be enough people out there interested in paying is one thing..

heh. Those of you in IRC last night will have heard about Reakktor filing for insolvency again though it seems like KK have been considering just this;

7. (CoreInsanity: ) Can you actually market the game good enough in its current (Fixed) state to bring in enough people to make money off it?

As pointed out at 5. I only see the option to revamp Neocron. This could be done within one year and bring back life and fun to the game.

Within the last 2 years we have thought about taking Neocron to Kickstarter or better doing something equal in Germany. But due to taxes this isn’t that easy here.

Now that Double Fine made this on Kickstarter there are plans to do this as well again. But the questions is: Shall we go for a revamped version of the old Neocron or shall we try to fund Neocron 3 right away. I think there is only one shot I think tbh.

The “problem” with Neocron3 is that 1st Neocron is a niche product in the SciFi genre so it isn’t that attractive to a publisher as an elvish fantasy MMO. 2nd doing a Neocron3 nowadays means taking state of the art graphics today and delivering an AAA title in the meaning of quality etc. This brings up the million dollar question again. Who shall fund it!?

We believe in it and we know that there are people who would love and play this game. But asking in Germany for example for 10 Mio for an MMO of such quality is nearly impossible. Asking internationally is irritating as well because partners/publishers think that we cannot do it for this amount in comparison to other titles out there.

So funding is the real deal.

Currently I have the plan to set up a structure to make it possible to make donations to the NC dev team or the game in general to keep the servers and the forums alive. But this has to be legally and taxwise 100% solid.

Beside this I take into regard to try crowdfunding a new Neocron3 or a revamped version of the old one.

And by saying this we have to take into consideration how the business model shall work as well. I am still a huge fan of a subscription based model but more money is currently made in the free to play market which makes the latter also more attractive to publishers. I know that you guys do not like the free to play option!:p

[Anubis]

I was just about to ask in IRC if you'd seen those replies yet heh. As I said last night, I really hope KK can pull through.

NC3 put together by crowdfunding would be interesting, but I'm not entirely sure how feasible it would be. Kirk mentions a few times in his replies that he thinks $1m would be enough to do it, and it would take about a year, but I just don't see how that's possible at all. Double Fine asked for $400k for a point and click adventure, and as big a fan of that genre as I am even I can admit that they're incredibly simplistic in comparison to AAA titles. Schafer said he'd want at least $13m to do Psychonauts 2, and that's Single Player only. As far as I'm concerned MMOs are HUGELY more expensive to develop as they would surely need hugely more complex subsystems developing for them. That means more time required, and THAT means more money needed.

Similarly, it takes 3-4 years for most AAA titles to be finished development wise. Again, MMOs are generally much bigger than the standard SP game map wise. And I'm only talking about maps there - not taking into account time that would be required for balancing and debugging. The suggestion that the entire development cycle of an MMO would be a year is, to me, quite ludicrous. Sure, they may already have an engine they can use from BP, but realistically building a land based game is logistically very different to a space one. It would not simply be a case of dumping new maps into place, I am sure.

At the end of the day whatever route they choose I'd love to see an NC3 come out - I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. But I think crowdfunding it may be a tad unrealistic myself, and I think a year is way out of line as to what would be required.

NOTE - I would like to mention whilst we're talking about this that Kirk also gives an answer to my long standing query as to how running NC2 is still viable for KK. Namely, that it isn't, and that he's been paying for the servers himself out of his own pocket for several years now. That's incredibly commendable as far as I am concerned, especially when he knows the state the game is in. Clearly he's very committed to the brand, and for nothing else he deserve a lot of respect for that. Servers are not cheap.

[Lee]

i hadnt heard of the kickstart(er?) but sourcing funding from people has always been around just not in game development.

While i accept a userbase funding a singleplayer game (or book/film) is perfectly valid, it cannot work in an mmo (tv series).
at the instance of donating you are buying in to a creative vision. You know what you are after, they are going to be giving and how much it would please you - hence the funding.
With an ongoing project like a mmo (or tv series) people are always going to end up with a sense of entitlement. i realise they dont want to, and try not to... but it'll happen.

In film the producers always take cash from people and its always been that way. its an accepted business practice, because they will get their money back with a little extra. This is simply a donation and few people will have the maturity to step away from that and accept its someone elses product.

i would be much more willing to 'buy' a game before development and shed all of that donation stuff. if they had the $15 whatever standard rate and when they got to release offered you the chance to buy the game for another 10.... that seems much more solid.
Given distribution is no longer the big 4/5 that'll stick disc's on shelves - theres many internet avenues to make use of.... is it worth trying to get money off them? I have seen many big titles release and garner serious income, but hear from lead dev's that the money never reaches them.

As you mentioned about NC - when 10tacle when wibbly and stopped accepting money (and 2.2 was free) i did always wonder how they were paying for badnwidth etc. big credit, i would like to think i would do that - but i cant say i would have lasted as long as him.
Given that each of the biggest selling games have been FPS, i would expect NC to be the 'next step' for gamers. I am cosntantly suprised by the lack of devleopment in this area. I would rather be developing my char in a mmo then buying shootemup4 and getting the same rank again and again.
maybe its me.

[M.Steiner]

Kirk mentions a few times in his replies that he thinks $1m would be enough to do it, and it would take about a year, but I just don't see how that's possible at all.....

I should have quoted question 5 which he refers to as you've misunderstood

5. Is returning to the NC1 version of neocron an option? A lot of the community seems to think everything was better back then?

I my ideal world, I would like to take the good things from and NC1 and NC2 and setup a new version. We have evaluated this option as well and have presented it to potential partners.

For example we have made tests with Unity and Neocron assets. And it worked pretty well! But making a revamped version of Neocron is also a question of money.

Setting up this basic version would cost above one million and would take probably round about one year with the current team we have.

The $1m figure isn't for a NC3

[Anubis]

The $1m figure isn't for a NC3

Ah, then i have misunderstood. Carry on! Would have to wait for more detail to be put onto the 'revamp' suggestion before commenting on how realistic $1m is for that.

While i accept a userbase funding a singleplayer game (or book/film) is perfectly valid, it cannot work in an mmo (tv series).

That's an interesting point, and something I hadn't considered. What exactly is the difference in terms of involvement of investors in MMO development as opposed to SP development.

You're right that lack of definition of product could lead to problems. I would hope though that a properly laid out project proposal would be produced as part of the pitch, so that KK would be presenting a very clear view of what the product would be. That might mitigate some of the problem.

[M.Steiner]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/double-fine-adventure
Little heads up. Double Fine are streaming a live 2hr countdown of their kickstarter tonight btw. Starts from 3pm PDT so if I've got my times right it should run from 10pm - 12am GMT.

(Also it seems some other interesting looking projects have popped up on Kickstarter too. )

[Anubis]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/double-fine-adventure
Little heads up. Double Fine are streaming a live 2hr countdown of their kickstarter tonight btw. Starts from 3pm PDT so if I've got my times right it should run from 10pm - 12am GMT.

(Also it seems some other interesting looking projects have popped up on Kickstarter too. )

Will definately tune in. Thanks for the heads up mate

[Kon]

(Also it seems some other interesting looking projects have popped up on Kickstarter too. )

Didn't I say this would happen? I'm pretty sure I said this would happen.

Next we'll see Angel Soft posting on Kickstarter so that they can develop triple-ply toilet paper at no risk. Why not? I was a big fan of their previous masterpiece, two-ply toilet paper.

[Whizbang]

(Also it seems some other interesting looking projects have popped up on Kickstarter too. )

Didn't I say this would happen? I'm pretty sure I said this would happen.

Next we'll see Angel Soft posting on Kickstarter so that they can develop triple-ply toilet paper at no risk. Why not? I was a big fan of their previous masterpiece, two-ply toilet paper.

I'd donate for triple-ply bog roll. It's the soft comfort that matters, right?

[M.Steiner]

Didn't I say this would happen? I'm pretty sure I said this would happen

Even if you did I'm sure there were plenty of us who saw this coming too but you probably are the only one who didn't see the benefits of this. Or at least that's the impression I got from your IRC comments yesterday on why anyone would care
After the huge success of the Double Fine kickstarter it was only a matter of time before other developers followed in their footsteps. Wasteland 2 will exceed the required amount as well and easily get funded, in the time that I slept they gained another 150k+ towards their goal.

There's this too. Though it is unlikely that this will get funded I think. Not that it isn't something many gamers would like but it seriously lacks publicity and has had nowhere near as much coverage as the Wasteland 2 kickstarter has just yesterday alone. Plus the video doesn't do an incredible job of selling it like the other 2. Even if that starts to spread and they turn it around there's only 18 days left.
Ofc there were games being funded on kickstarter well before the DF Adventure but with the massive success of that they've set a trend with theirs and it will be the first of many. I don't know about the rest of you but I think this is an exciting time tbh. Mostly for indie developers but it will promote innovation & creativity as game devs will have much more freedom in making their games when they don't have to pitch the idea to a publisher first. They can (hopefully) be as imaginative as they want. Games which would otherwise never see the light of day.

I think I'll be keeping my eye out for any other kickstarter projects that pop up which I may want to back too


[Edit: See my post in the NC thread too, regarding a possible Neocron Reloaded kickstarter.]

[M.Steiner]

You should have an email but Schafer has a new video update over on their kickstarter page, have to login to watch it as it's kept private to backers only

[M.Steiner]

Hope you don't mind me posting this btw - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sto ... anner-saga
Figured I might as well post other potentially good looking kickstarter projects in this thread since it was Double Fine who have really kicked it off in the first place hehe. Don't want to derail the thread though so if you want em kept separate feel free to slap me lol.

Remember reading about 3 BioWare members who left to form an indie studio?. Stoic. This is from them.
"The Banner Saga is a role-playing game merged with turn-based strategy, wrapped into an adventure mini-series about vikings."

Lots more info on the page but it looks & sounds really cool imo ^^

[Anubis]

Tis fine I edited the topic title to reflect the divergence!

Not 100% sure about that one I have to admit. Visually it kind of looks like an old Flash game, which isn't too endearing.

I like the sound of it's background and aim though, so I'll keep an eye on it. Definately not something I'll watch as closely as Double Fine Adventure or Wasteland 2, but I'll watch it nontheless!

Thanks for the link

[Anubis]

Looks like that's all three funded now. Amazing how quickly this is catching on!

Any more projects out there awaiting our money?

[M.Steiner]

Looks like that's all three funded now. Amazing how quickly this is catching on!

Any more projects out there awaiting our money?

Exciting ain't it?

Speaking of other projects. I've had my eye on this indie game for a year or so now but up until recently I hadn't heard much else on it. Was just reading over on RPS that they've just opened up discussions with the community about the possibility of a kickstarter for it too. - Dead State.
I know you're not usually big on zombie based stuff but have a read, Anny. Maybe you'll be interested when you see which guy is behind it (Bloodlines lead writer ^^)
(Old interview here as well. This was the article which originally introduced me to it and gained my interest).

I'll be instantly backing this should they go ahead with a kickstarter fund for it ^^


http://www.kickingitforward.org/ too. Great idea imo.

[M.Steiner]

There's this too. Though it is unlikely that this will get funded I think. Not that it isn't something many gamers would like but it seriously lacks publicity and has had nowhere near as much coverage as the Wasteland 2 kickstarter has just yesterday alone. Plus the video doesn't do an incredible job of selling it like the other 2. Even if that starts to spread and they turn it around there's only 18 days left.

They have just semi relaunched this. Only 5 days left as they can't restart the clock but it's a lot less vague than it was before and has a much better video and description. Have seen some incredible backing on these other 3 projects so if lots of gaming sites start reporting on this today maybe there's still a chance that this will get funded too. It's really pushing it but you never know, the Banner Saga exceeded 100k in under 48hrs once word got out so it's definitely possible. Would be a shame for it not to anyway.

[Edit] Will edit this in since I don't want to spam the thread when there's only 2 of us posting here atm lol. Obsidian have confirmed that they're working on a kickstarter now too. No idea what it is, perhaps Alpha Protocol 2 since Sega already said they wouldn't publish a sequel after the firsts poor reception and crap sales?. Or maybe this project North Carolina of theirs which was recently cancelled as well? hmmm. Interesting at least though a little odd that a developer like these guys are looking at kickstarter.

[M.Steiner]

Well, to anyone else interested in the tactical shooter Takedown. It was looking very close at one point this evening but in these last few remaining hours the minecraft creator helped spread the word over twitter, someone pledged an amazing 10 grand and we've now exceeded the required amount by 15k and counting!. Really great to see this project make it too, was worried it would fall short

Another one I've come across today btw.
The Dead Linger

Not sure whether I'll pledge this one yet but I definitely will for Dead State when they get the ball rolling with that!

[Anubis]

The concept of The Dead Linger looks interesting, but the renders are not hugely impressive, and what they're promising looks wildly optimistic for a $60k budget. I am not sure I trust that the game will turn out good enough to justify the outlay supporting that one I am afraid...

[M.Steiner]

It's not a 60k budget game btw, they've already been working on it for 6 months according to the info there. The kickstarter budget will just "allow us a full-time development window of at least 6 months, on top of the 6 months we've already been working on it". So I suppose it depends how far they've already gotten with it as to whether it's really achievable. I'm hoping they'll release some gameplay footage before their timer ends, even if it's just a tiny glimpse to get a better idea. The concept of it sounds appealing it's just... kinda hard to get a real picture of how it'll actually turn out.

What did you think of Brian Mitsoda's Dead State btw?. Hopefully the kickstarter for that isn't too far away!. That sounded much more promising

[Anubis]

What did you think of Brian Mitsoda's Dead State btw?. Hopefully the kickstarter for that isn't too far away!. That sounded much more promising

Not looked at that one too much yet, as there isn't really a 'brief' yet due to the lack of Kickstarter. When it gets one, I'll give it due consideration ofc

[M.Steiner]

Developers need to slow the <censored> down with these kickstarters already, there are only so many I can support!
Shadowrun Returns

(and for those who don't frequent IRC - Leisure Suit Larry)

[Anubis]

(and for those who don't frequent IRC - Leisure Suit Larry)

Small text? Ashamed?

[Whizbang]

Developers need to slow the <censored> down with these kickstarters already, there are only so many I can support!
Shadowrun Returns

(and for those who don't frequent IRC - Leisure Suit Larry)

My pledged to Shadowrun without a second thought.