Two Kara runs?

Our US players can be found on the Mannoroth PVP server!

Moderators: Global Moderators, WoW =US= Moderators

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:58 pm

User avatar
QuantumDelta
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:51 pm
Location: Bristol, England.
Contact:
You have two, very core people to your raids whom know exactly what is required to raid in TBC getting very tired of;
Carrying, or trying to carry undergeared and uneducated(or uncaring?) raids through content that is above them. <- There's no easy way to say that and they don't want to hurt people.


TBC took an interesting turn on release, it's MO is that you gear to raid, you do not raid to gear. And this is extremely important, it's an interesting debate because it extends further to both sides of the fence that the previous instalment of the game ran.

TBC is more casual friendly and more entry-level-friendly in that the craftable, 5man, heroic and PvP gear is FAR FAR closer to and sometimes superior (vastly) to the first THREE raid instances drops, meaning there is a far higher quality of gear available to the casual, solo and 5man player.

TBC is more hardcore orientated in that nearly all raids now REQUIRE this level of gearing to get anywhere.
You NEED Primal mooncloth and/or the best blues from fivemans + any other epics from heroics and/or rep rewards you can get hold of to heal properly.
You NEED Frozensoul weave/spellfire/etc to do reasonable DPS at the start of these raids.
You NEED Bracers of the Green Fortress, Devilshark cape, The engineering goggles or Heroic 50 badge helms and several other goodies to make you even a half-assed raid tank and if you haven't gone so far to acquire this gear and you aren't crit/crush immune or over 13k HP (11.8 for Paladins) unbuffed you wouldn't get to tank in most guilds.

You guys should look at this;

http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/1113 ... 240gn2.jpg
(See HP)
My gear, nor the gear of my comrades is 'hugely beyond' what they entered Karazhan with.
In general the stats have gone up across the board yes, but these stats are actually very small gains on what was available from Pre-Kara gear.
To put it into comparison for you warriors, Paladins have a natural 1.2k HP less when naked compared to warriors, so if I were a warrior with this gear and buffs you'd be looking at very close to 23k hp.

This guilds progression stopped against a brick wall at, most unsurprisingly the very first major gear check in the instance, and it will remain that way until people gear themselves properly for the instance, from outside of that instance, or from the three bosses that you can kill, and the last option will take a very, very long time.

Weili and Mike have been trying as hard as they possibly can to nudge the guild over this hump but it will simply not happen (and this is my perspective not theirs) - period - unless people gear via any and all means necessary.

So it comes down to this;
They're now miserable in a guild that they love, and a 'family who is supposed to care for it's own' is shunning them because they're desperately trying to find other ways to keep them happy so they don't quit on that family, and people are yelling at them for it.

Now you guys have to decide a few things;

If you're a raiding guild (even a casual one) and recognise that you have to gear to raid - there is no other option.
If you're a non-raiding, do your own thing, occasionally/regularly get together for social events guild and drop kara completely for instances you /are/ capable of, like Scholomance (Yea I'm an ass, so sue me, this needs to be said).

It comes down to this; If you want to raid and if nothing is done you will only end up losing Mike and Weili, because I sure as hell don't see you paying their subscriptions and there is no way in hell they're going to stay in an environment that makes them miserable because other people are being a problem (and no matter how good you think you are if you still have a single blue gear piece that is under iLevel 115, non-specific to your job in the raid, or a single green of any description, you are a liability to the karazhan raid.
Blue iL 115 is stupidly easy to achieve and it's quite depressing considering most guilds who are interested in raiding at whatever level completely out strips that before they even go INTO kara and you lot are asking for boss kills, progress and dedicated people when you're not even out of greens, or not playing the game that way it needs to be played to pass the content.


I actually dropped by vent to have a conversation with Mike and offer my advice when I heard you guys were stuck on Curator, and every single thing I could offer to attempt to 'stack' the raid composition or tactics used to your favour was completely obliterated by the lack of will to gear or spec or play properly from some of the other members (missing classes was the biggest factor to be fair but the others were still significant, especially considering how DRASTICALLY undergeared most of you are) and this isn't what they have told me.
I went into the armoury on most of you and CHECKED, some of you I wouldn't even want to take to my heroics on my mage alt on Outland simply because you will die more often than anyone who has put even a remote amount of effort into their gear and I really don't feel like 4 manning (or 2-9 manning for kara) an instance that's designed for 5 people.

These two, at least, are getting burnt out, and those of you who do want to raid really can't be so ignorant as to see that they're carrying you to such a degree, from what I can tell, that your raiding will entirely collapse without them, for a significant period of time.

So you all have to decide what you're doing to do, because they're near breaking point.


Almost all of this commentary comes from independent observation and comparative examples from my past experience.

I don't know how much of this Mike or Weili would have wanted me to said but the SSX US group has a horribly bad habit of not wanting to step on anyones toes, always playing the political game which leads to a lot of excess baggage and until ALL of the crap gets aired you ain't ever gonna be happy, any of you, very few of you tell eachother how you really think or feel a lot of the time and it leads to so many problems that could be avoided just by listening with the level of patience and understanding that you try to talk with. -> Currently you all talk with such a high level of "PC" and "Poised diplomacy" that you rarely get what you really want to say across, and it's making the speakers unhappy far more than it is the listeners.
If the listeners can't take what needs to be said then I completely overestimated the level of maturity in this group.

And these posts are major steps forward for that.

I actually AM guild leader in Avalon, I RUN things, people REPORT to me.
They're still more than welcome to call me an asshole and explain why, cuz after they've DONE that I can help them or try to stop whatever their problem is, or try to give them perspective on why things are like they are.

-edited out the insults-
"Then, to hide their frailty, they hurt those who are kind.
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:46 am

Lilleth
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Okay.

Weili and Mike...I certainly wouldn't want to lose either of you. We've lost too many good people lately. :(

I was going to suggest we start scheduling normal and heroic 5-mans in guild, rather than just showing up each night with "hey, who wants to run...?", but figured that wouldn't work (we can just pug those easily enough, right? And I'm sure most have/will).

Maybe it's very "un-hardcore" of me (tongue firmly in cheek, guys ;) ), but I rarely pug. I prefer to run with friends...people I know and trust. We all know how frustrating it can sometimes be to login, hoping for some guildie action, scrambling to get 5 people who all want/need to run X instance, sitting around for 30 min, an hour...two...waiting for a 5th to show/join in.

If we could schedule some...well, we might avoid that. Lately, I've been helping other guildies with lower-level instances or rep grinds or attunements. I guess by doing this, I'm not getting any better gear for myself, but hey, that's a few more folks that are that much closer to their heroic keys or Kara...more bodies able to run = more 5-man runs.

I've got a point (/gasp!).

There's definite tension in this guild right now. Unfortunately, my instinctive response to tension is avoidance. (Some may have noticed I've not been logging in as much lately). I don't want to avoid, I want to resolve, and the only way that's going to happen is if we actually discuss the tension; openly, honestly, maturely and with the goal of resolving it. This doesn't mean everybody in the guild will be 100% happy with any plans/roadmaps/what-have-you, that's unrealistic. But it's a jumping-off point.

So. I propose: No more pst's in-game, complaining about so-and-so, no more "closed-door" discussions, no more high-school drama (I know I've been guilty of all three...and I'm not alone here). First off, I think we need an officer meeting, to narrow the focus of our issues. Then, a full (or as close to full as we can get) guild meeting where we lay our cards on the table for all to see, good or bad. We'll need to schedule it. We'll need to make everyone understand how important it is they attend, or at least make a true effort to contribute before and/or find out what was said after (if there's a conflict and someone can't make the meeting).

In closing, I want to say I consider you all friends. Not a lot of people would understand that in the "real" world, but we all know what it means :) This is the first "real" guild I've been a member of (<Fuzzy Rabbid Bunnys>.../groan. In my defence, it was a PvE server, and the GM was Clamtapper/Shawn, remember him? I had nothing whatsoever to do with the spelling :rolleyes: ), and I've enjoyed every minute of it. Well, maybe not EVERY minute...lol...but most of 'em!

I realize I'm a relative newcomer to the SSX family, but as an officer (albeit a n00b one :p ) I'm jointly responsible for keeping the guild running smoothly. I hope this thread contributes to that...keeping the lines of communication open, always.
/purr
******
Lilleth 85 Night Elf Druid-Resto (Mannoroth)
Raevynn 85 Night Elf Hunter (Mannoroth)
Zyllah 85 Night Elf Death Knight-Blood (Mannoroth)

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:03 am

Inquisitor
Posts: 3411
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:46 am
Location: SSX
Contact:
Since the vitriol is edited, this post is no longer necessary from me.
Last edited by Inquisitor on Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No signature

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:01 am

User avatar
lili
Posts: 693
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 9:12 pm
Location: The hospital
Contact:
Mike and I acutally talked to Stu about our situation over vent and asked him to post his own thoughts on the matter just as we have.
Babydolly Frost Mage 70
Pocky Protection Pally 70

I didn't fall from grace, I dove.
What do you mean my halo is lopsided, it's balanced perfectly on my horns.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:14 am

Mike D
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:57 am
I guess I didnt realize the situation. And call it ignorance, but I thought I was geared enough to run kara. As a result, I spent more time working on alts when we werent raiding. Now that I know I need some better gear, Ill start working on gearing up Owin. Any help and/or recommendations are welcome :lol:

Im looking forward to spending the next couple weeks grinding gear and rep. Focusing on TK rep atm, so if Im on and anyone wants to run, let me know!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:13 pm

Inquisitor
Posts: 3411
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:46 am
Location: SSX
Contact:
Mike and I acutally talked to Stu about our situation over vent and asked him to post his own thoughts on the matter just as we have.
Be that as it may, sometimes in the past, people have assumed that a lengthy post by a long standing member is gospel. Its not. If you guys want it to be seen that way, great, just warn everyone. And warn him not to start and end the post with condemnation.

-edit-
Edited out the argument, stay focused on fixing your problems, not my aggravation with Stu.
Last edited by Inquisitor on Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No signature

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:28 pm

Lilleth
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Mike D wrote:I guess I didnt realize the situation. And call it ignorance, but I thought I was geared enough to run kara. As a result, I spent more time working on alts when we werent raiding. Now that I know I need some better gear, Ill start working on gearing up Owin. Any help and/or recommendations are welcome :lol:

Im looking forward to spending the next couple weeks grinding gear and rep. Focusing on TK rep atm, so if Im on and anyone wants to run, let me know!
Me too :)

I think part of the problem was that although Mike and Weili have been trying to tell us in a nice, unconfrontational, round-about way that we didn't have the gear to continue past Curator, many of us needed a flat out "We can/will NOT go any further until we're geared." I don't think many of us really felt we were being told we couldn't, just that it would be really, really hard without upgrading (and hard is fun, right? A challenge :D ). And we assumed we'd ALL be together for that challenge...

I figured "okay, we'll just keep running the first four, until we're all better geared". I looked at it as practice...learning those 4 fights really well, getting them down pat, getting some more purples in the process, having fun with our friends (even when we're wiping all night, I have fun). I thought everyone was okay with that. I don't remember ever being told that this timetable wasn't acceptable to others.

I think some feel that that chance was taken away when the decision was made to; a) start running earlier in the week (I was included in one such guild run...and I didn't think anything of it, so I'm guilty of this too), and b) to run with another guild...both without even telling anyone else beforehand. There are quite a few guildies who were under the assumption, as Mark said above, that Friday/Saturday raid times were voted on, and were still "the days" for Kara. It may have seemed, unintentionally, a bit underhanded.

I think most of the problem is simple miscommunication. No one told me "I'm getting frustrated with the pace this guild is going. I'd like the chance to pug/join another guild's raid once in a while, how do you guys feel about that?".

I don't want to hold anyone back. I understand that some of my guildies are more "hardcore" than me, and some are even less so. I also don't want to lose ANYBODY. I love our guild. Mike and Weili, you are my friends, and I'm sorry you're both feeling stressed and unhappy :( . I wish I had known this, and known the real reason WHY before now.

Communication. The guild, as a whole, needs to talk.

*edited for spelling errors
/purr
******
Lilleth 85 Night Elf Druid-Resto (Mannoroth)
Raevynn 85 Night Elf Hunter (Mannoroth)
Zyllah 85 Night Elf Death Knight-Blood (Mannoroth)

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:09 pm

User avatar
Bladesinger
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:53 pm
Location: If I were a snake I'd have bitten you.
Contact:
I agree with Steph. We all need to be more forthright about our personal desires/goals and expectations of the guild as a whole. We're too polite for our own good and that's lead us to where we are today. :smack:

Even with the difficulties we're having now we're still in a good place. It's this crossroad that got passed by when the Grey Goose Gang decided to pack up and leave. What I see now are two groups of people in the guild; those wanting progression and those who are more laid back and are ok with a slow pace raid style.

The only real problem I see is too many guildies going on non-guild runs to further progression. Going on a quick mental count it looks to me like we have enough, or almost enough, people in SSX who have the gear and desire to progress. Why can't we go ahead and schedule a progression run and a gearing/practice/more casual run each week? That way we'll have people getting the progression they want while leaving the option open for people to join in progression when they have the gear.

I was looking around on the Armory for item upgrades on my gear and there appear to be a number of good Epic drops off trash mobs in Kara. Rather than doing 5 man runs or BG/Arena all the blinking time why don't we get farming groups together and kill trash mobs for a while too? Just because we're in the instance doesn't mean we have to be killing the bosses. With the respawn rate we could theoretically stay in the instance for hours killing mobs, gathering Epics and getting practice playing together as a group.

Personally I'm at something of a wall. Since I leveled Arms I didn't get some of the quest rewards that would be a tanking gear upgrade now. At this point I can do BG and grind instances for gear that would replace the (pretty decent tanking) greens I've got, which would then be replaced as soon as suitable epics drop in Kara. The most efficient gearing route for me, and probably Jay, would be to farm Kara trash.

Another possibility is doing 2-4 boss runs with the people who aren't geared as well and then letting the people who are able to go further run on that instance and get the progression they want. It seems to be a win/win to me. The more casual players get some raiding and will slowly get suitable gear and the more serious raiders get the progression they want with fewer wipes before Curator.

Even if the more serious people wanted to do the first few bosses, as long as we all chose to stop after the Opera Event each group would be saved to the same place and the progression group could then go forward from that point.

The worst thing that could happen right now is those people who are able to progress going on non-guild raids, and worse yet, leaving the guild. If we all work together and pool our toon resources I'm sure we could come up with a raid group capable of progressing in Kara. However, as long as we keep diluting our resources SSX will never progress and we'll all end up getting frusterated at eachother and lose people.

All that being said, we each need to choose how we want to play. If we want to raid we do need to spend the time to get the gear to be fair for all the other players in the raid. If you prefer to quest and level multiple characters then play that way, this is supposed to be fun after all. However, don't expect to be let into raids of folks looking for progression.
Shattered Star since 1998

Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:27 pm

Inquisitor
Posts: 3411
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:46 am
Location: SSX
Contact:
You do need folks to step up and be in charge. And if folks are off "doing other things with other guilds" and there are enough of them, they SHOULD band together and do it as SSX.

People should progress at their own pace, and those behind will have to accept that they are behind for some things, its that simple.

I fell behind in LOTRO. I have no expectations that people should wait for me. When I fell behind in FFXI, I made it clear to my guildies that they should NOT wait for me.

I eventually caught up in FFXI and will catch up in LOTRO, but that is MY problem, not my guildies.

There is nothing that says you can't have real leadership, there is nothing that says you can't have natural divisions in talent or preparedness and play along those lines.

We gave up all notions of "Freedom" and "Equality" at any cost a long time ago. Yo u need to talk to one another and try and stay friends. Those are really the only rules.

hell, without the bashing that QD did, his post is otherwise spot on. Matter of fact, I will remove the insults so this thread can stand as something productive.
No signature

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:39 pm

User avatar
lili
Posts: 693
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 9:12 pm
Location: The hospital
Contact:
Yes i would like to see the guild raid together, but because of members not progessing at the same rate, many members did find a group of friends who raids together. I for one will not force these people to break up the raid that they've been doing with the same people for months just so the few of the since then geared people can raid.

As posted in the GMOTD Kara attemps have been put on hold for the next few weeks so people can gear up. We have tried and tried for people to read GMOTD and then come on here and post but that has not be sucessful, so I'm running out of ideas and I'm not going to chase down people cause it's a game and I would like to enjoy it.
Babydolly Frost Mage 70
Pocky Protection Pally 70

I didn't fall from grace, I dove.
What do you mean my halo is lopsided, it's balanced perfectly on my horns.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:14 pm

User avatar
undrin
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:34 am
I agree that people need to be geared up for the raids. If you do not have acceptable gear then please understand you may not get invited. It is just that everyone has to have some a good lvl of gear for everyone to progress. The great thing is everyone can get good gear without raid, and quite frankly have to in BC to raid. So lets do it get your gear lets get the show on the road.
Xbox One: Auravil come and visit sometime!

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:20 pm

Inquisitor
Posts: 3411
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:46 am
Location: SSX
Contact:
If someone doesn't "chase people down" then you will start losing people to attrition. I strongly suspect if people have been "raiding for months" with other groups, you have effectively already lost those people.

It doesn't have to be just one person, either, you should have an officer corps of people by now who feel empowered to poke, and get people to post or at least read, to grease those communication wheels. One person should never feel so overwhelmed they can't enjoy themselves anymore.

I don't know what it is about MMO's and forums, but its like pulling teeth to get your average player to participate in anything outside the game.
No signature

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:54 pm

User avatar
Alorah
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:28 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:
If I may insert a few comments from outside of the guild. I've been following this thread fairly well although I sometimes skip things due to a feeling of repetition so maybe this has been covered at one point.

Aside from nudging people to go get their gear, people also have to aid guildies looking for help. I know in the weeks prior to my departure from the guild I'd been trying to get guild runs for quests, instances, and miscellaneous things and would rarely get any help. I do acknowledge that some people did try to help-the people I'd frequently talk to in tells. But I think the most guild help I got at one time was from two people and I feel the only reason I get two was that they're married. :p Now I don't mean to bash, and I hope it doesn't come off that way, but if a person's been having a hard time through the game and has been asking for help for days for specific things, I think the guild should help them. Just so this doesn't come off that the reason I wasn't getting help was because it was me specifically, Al noted the same things in his latest thread.

I hope this helps and that you get where you want to go. :)

Edited for redundancies.
Last edited by Alorah on Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kara

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:56 pm

User avatar
RagingDeath
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:59 am
Location: Michigan
I thought when we started this guild, we wanted to make sure people could play and have fun and not be TOLD what character to play, how it should be made, where to go, what to do etc.... We are dangerously close to blowing this wide open. Yes we have met a challenge in the Curator, yes we SEEM to be under geared, HOWEVER we had him to 17% with our current gear. Now wtf should we just give up? That was just our 2-3 attempt at Curator with our current gear. This guild was challenged with MC at first, did we just up and stop or did we press on? Yes it can be frustrating running head first into a wall (and painful hehe), but some leverage might help :-). The other thing that bugs me is seeing other SSX people running raids with other guilds on a constant basis. We kinda need your help i.e. boss experience, filling spots because we dont have enough togo, or maybe just to hang out as a guild and chat. But i guess that would e wrong of me to MAKE you change your playing style. Its a very difficult thin line to cross. Thats where the communication issue comes in. Have any of us asked them to start running KARA with the guild? Have we asked them why they are running with whomever and not the guild? Have we asked ourselves what do we want to do as a guild as far as KARA goes? POST POST POST PLZ!!!!!!
I have started to gearup as much as i can and help others as well. I for one would love to see the higher end game content. But not at other peoples expense. Either we have enough or we dont, or either were geared or were not i dont care, i think we should should keep scheduling the normal FRI-SAT KARA runs and anytime b4 or after that gear up with Heriocs, pvp, quests whatever. Inquisitor made some good points but STU has gave us some really good info and help in the past and continues to. Even though he comes over harsh hes still a valued opinion. And not taking anything from you INQ your wisdom is VERY much respected and appreciated. A guild and or officer meeting should be scheduled asap or this stuff is not gonna go away. I suggest this weekend SAT OR SUN.
Duty is heavy as a mountain, Death is lighter than a feather.


warrior

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:29 am

User avatar
Zepol
Posts: 273
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:00 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:
nice posts guys.
and please read my sig. its been on there for a long time
(RIP-You will never be forgotten)Zepol lvl 70 Lock- Afflication and Destruction.
(Reborn)Zepol lvl 80 Mage - Arcane (Akama)
Ive lvl 80 Shamman - Resto/Elemental(Akama)
Faeith lvl 80 DeathKnight - Frost Tank/Blood DPS(Akama)
Never give up before attempting it first.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:44 am

Inquisitor
Posts: 3411
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:46 am
Location: SSX
Contact:
Don't let my irritation with Stu distract this conversation. My apolgies for going off on my tirade.
No signature

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:47 am

User avatar
QuantumDelta
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:51 pm
Location: Bristol, England.
Contact:
I recall that 17% attempt was with a couple of non-guildies doing a significant amount of work in the group? (This is what I've been told, can't bare witness to it obv xP)

All I'm saying is Curator is one of the flat-out-gear-checks in the game, there are a few (Curator, Gruul, Magtheridon, Trials of the Naaru, Leo, Vashj, Voidreaver, Solarian, Kael - and that's just up to TK, though I might be downtalking Vashj and Kael to call them gear checks, they're very enjoyable fights that require a lot of skill, teamwork and coordination too) throughout the early-to-mid game, if I was misinformed though and 17% was done purely with guildies you guys should note something;
Curator Enrages at 15%.
No more Adds, No more Evocations.
The fight gets a LOT simpler, your chances of killing him post-15% is significantly higher if you can get there.

I don't think anyone mentioned forcing people to do anything, but raiding kinda has a level of responcibility built into the game now whether you're a 'hardcore' or 'casual' raiding guild.
It's been eased a lot by the consumables changes to make people require less pots each raid but consumables also make a huge difference.
There's a lot you can do to pad your raid out, and stack against a boss like Curator, and a few weeks ago I had a loooooooong conversation with Mike to try to find a way to 'work around' your gear problems, as far as I could see, there was not enough manpower in the right classes to fix the problem.

To that end my advice 3 weeks ago was not to frustrate your members and therefore avoid Curator (smashing your head against a brick wall is never good, it frays peoples nerves) until your gear is a little more established, again, the topic of discussion wasn't to force people to gear up but simply the impracticality of (I think the gap was a 40-45% performance difference) downing him with any likely setup you guys could pull on a particular week, even if you were very specific about who you invited.

To restress, I don't think anyone was planning on /forcing/ anyone to gear/chant/pot/stack(stacking is for example taking 2 warlocks, 1 spriest, 1 resto shaman, 1 holy pally 1 prot pally, one resto druid or holy priest and the rest DPS classes of one description or another (though fire mages are very good for that fight it's often very advisable to bring along combat sword rogues if possible for the adds - because it's less stress on peoples mana) a "perfect" raid for Curator) for the raid, and make them pot the crap outta it.

The thing I think Weili and Mike are asking people to realise is how much of a needless stress there is on the raid because of peoples gear - Curator has been a brick wall because of this.

People who do /want/ to raid should realise that unlike WoW Vanilla, TBCs' MO is very much "Gear to raid, not raid to gear", can't stress it enough.
The first of Avalon who cleared that instance (start to finish, kara in 3 weeks) didn't actually take much of anything from the instance in terms of drops, we dissed a lot of gear because we already out geared it (in certain slots, and this doesn't necessarily apply to all classes, but in general this was the case - tanks were the ones who took on the most gear).

The best compromise I can see you having at the moment (Assuming you REALLY don't want to stop raiding as a guild for a bit to allow people to gear up in peace) is simply to raid very early in the week (Wed if poss), with SSX, take the raid up to curator, clear what you can clear then let those who are geared enough to go onwards bring in STNY or whomever they're raiding with to support them and finish it.

WoW's changed, anyone can raid now, anyone at all, but at the cost of having to prepare for their raids, and needing their guild mates to prepare for that raid.

As always, I'm here if anyone needs advice in any nature, don't forget we have 40 odd people who've done this before.

P.S - I have a fun story for anyone with qualms about working to do this gearing really nice feeling from remembering it.

Edit;
P.P.S - If I screwed up with 3 weeks estimate on how long ago it was my perception of time has really been screwed this past week, it's been REALLY, busy for me and bloody stressful -.-
"Then, to hide their frailty, they hurt those who are kind.
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:09 pm

User avatar
Bladesinger
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:53 pm
Location: If I were a snake I'd have bitten you.
Contact:
lili wrote:Yes i would like to see the guild raid together, but because of members not progessing at the same rate, many members did find a group of friends who raids together. I for one will not force these people to break up the raid that they've been doing with the same people for months just so the few of the since then geared people can raid.
That sentiment is not only extremely unfair to those people who've worked their butts off to gear up, it's also one which is very hurtful to the guild. Those people are still SSX and they're hurting their guild a lot by not raiding with us. The whole point of a guild is to create a group of people who work together and share resources to do things, not to go off with another group to have fun.

It's not at all unfair or wrong to expect people in a guild to play with people in their same guild if they are able to. In fact, I'd say it's unfair and wrong not to expect that sort of thing.

Yes, that does mean that there will be times when we will all have to do things that aren't as fun for us as individuals but will ultimately result in more fun as a member of the group. It may mean respeccing; it may mean slowing progression or taking a step or two back while the newly formed raid group gets in synch; or it may mean a host of other things.

However, the net result will be the same. SSX, as a guild, will get into a place where serious progress is possible and we will all ultimately have a lot of fun playing together again.

SSX will ***NEVER*** get anywhere if we keep letting people go off and do their own thing all the time. As a guild we have to put our foot down and put a stop to this.

No more "but what if [some circumstance comes up]?". If someone has an irregular extracurricular reason for not being able to make a raid that week and they let us know in advance, then let them raid on someone else's schedule THAT WEEK. Letting people know if/when they will be gone for a pre-scheduled event is only respectful of the others anyway, it's not keeping track for the sake of holding people back.

Weili
Joel
Mei
Alex
David/Ricky
Vinny
Mike
Will
Jerry

All of you are geared sufficiently, why don't you find one more guildie to join you and get on raiding together as SSX? Heck, you could even do it during this month while the rest of us are trying so hard to get geared up.
Shattered Star since 1998

Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:09 pm

User avatar
Zepol
Posts: 273
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:00 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:
Man I recall alot of times helping others getting there Kara attunment.
I could of been selfish and just gone off to raid with other guilds. But instead I decided to hang back and wait for the guild to catch up so we can have a full amount for Kara.

Now i know I dont play anymore, but I was not the only one helping others getting Kara attuned. So I know there are others out there that feel used.

Also another note. Alot of times there were drops in the Kara raids that belonged to certain classes but instead given to those that didnt need it that badly and also go off and play with other guilds.

Now to clear things up i am going to point out one incident.

Romeo and Juliet fight.
Purp Plate waist piece was dropped. Defenitly for a prot tank item.
It was given to Alex which he is purely DPS and doesnt even participate much in guild events.
My suggetion would of been giving that item to Phil because he was still wearing a GREEN belt and he was playing MT roll that night. Now I believe Phil should of reieved this item because Jay was not there at that moment. So he would be second in line.
I will not argue about the helm however because Jerry recieved that item and he is speced out in a way that he can give damage and hold agro so its kinda of a Procdps mix.

So people would be geared up if you give the appropiate items to those who show there dedication towards the guild and are main rolls in this case.
(RIP-You will never be forgotten)Zepol lvl 70 Lock- Afflication and Destruction.
(Reborn)Zepol lvl 80 Mage - Arcane (Akama)
Ive lvl 80 Shamman - Resto/Elemental(Akama)
Faeith lvl 80 DeathKnight - Frost Tank/Blood DPS(Akama)
Never give up before attempting it first.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:33 pm

User avatar
lili
Posts: 693
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 9:12 pm
Location: The hospital
Contact:
When we first down romeo and juliet I was the only prot tank there besides alex and I had no isue with letting him have the helm (it was a helm to date there hasn't been a tanking belt drop) he was mixed prot and he won the roll. When we started kara it was also if you want it roll on and and good luck to you so why bring that up now. What I did have issue with was people then saying there was no prot tanks there. I get plenty of people telling me pallys can't tank without my own guildies saying so.
Babydolly Frost Mage 70
Pocky Protection Pally 70

I didn't fall from grace, I dove.
What do you mean my halo is lopsided, it's balanced perfectly on my horns.

Why?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:46 pm

User avatar
Aoiren
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:59 pm
This is a game and being such meant to be for fun.

I have tried my best to do what I could for the guild. I think that I was the first to get Kara attuned within the guild and went into Karazhan with another guild to learn the fights. I did this so that when SSX was ready to go I could make the instance easier on everyone.

I know that I have not helped everyone with their Karazhan attunement but I have helped a good number of guild members to do so.

No one asked me to do this, I just felt that it was something I should do to make Karazhan an enjoyable instance for everyone. I know that I am not being called out, but I feel like I have to address this issue.

When we started doing Karazhan within the guild, any loot that dropped was always able to anyone who participated in the run and that needed it. This was stated up front and while it was not stated for every loot drop it should have been understood.

Probably not a good time for this but when is. I have a new job which will require me to move. I am really not sure if I will be able to play WoW for a good bit after I move. So, for the next two weeks I am going to be selfish for once and have fun and go on the raids to see more of the WoW content. I don't plan to lead any raids for this period of time because it is stressful having the responsibility.

Now granted that posting this message in this context at this time will possibly cause grief and for that I do apologize. But it is time for me to blow a gasket and so I am.

I am tired of the discontent and I will sure not be dragged into another damn session complaining about loot again.

When did we become a guild that forces members to run raids with other people? If we don't have enough people that want to run together then either bring more people into the guild want to run with you or pug the spots.
Aoiren: 70 Priest (Enchanter/Tailor)
Raid Leader-"The tank .. needs full heals.. now!"

Aoiren - "I given him all I got, capn. I dunut have tha mana."

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:51 pm

User avatar
undrin
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:34 am
First off Alan you did help alot of people get attuned, which was very much appreciated. So did I. Also what does that have to do with people getting equipment to run Kara? Nothing. If you don't like guild members running with other guilds you have cut many people off from thier friends. That is foolish and short sighted.

At the same time I think what you are getting at is that these people that are running Kara with others are not helping the guild to get better gear. That is dead wrong. Those same people have spent many many hours running guild members through many instances. I do not belive holding people back from running what they are geared for while at the same time helping us.

We did the EXACT same thing with MC some of the guild ran with STNY. We were geared enough for it and we also learned how to run the instance really well by the time SSX was able to get a group strong enough to run it. This is a benifit for the whole gulid.

As a side note, I am not interested in running a Kara trash mob run when you might and I mean might get one EPIC every few runs. When if we run the 5 man instances and Regular Battle grounds we can get superior gear with the rep and drops.

So people please relax here we are going to move forword we are now pushing people to get the gear we need. It is working I am on alot during the day and I see alot of Instance and PvP runs all day long. Thank you for your time. :thumb:
Xbox One: Auravil come and visit sometime!

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:03 pm

User avatar
undrin
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:34 am
Mike as a response to this "When did we become a guild that forces members to run raids with other people?"
We are not nor ever have been like this.
Xbox One: Auravil come and visit sometime!

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:13 pm

User avatar
lili
Posts: 693
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 9:12 pm
Location: The hospital
Contact:
Since names are now being named, there's a child in that group you named with bed times and frankly other responsiblies like just being a kid and have fun. There's people in that list that works odd hours. There's students in that lst. And frankly it's rare to see all these people on at the same time before 10pm and that's only once a while friday. THIS IS A GAME. Enjoy it and there will be NO forcing people to raid coming from me! I for one will now enjoy this game.
Babydolly Frost Mage 70
Pocky Protection Pally 70

I didn't fall from grace, I dove.
What do you mean my halo is lopsided, it's balanced perfectly on my horns.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:28 pm

Achara
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:19 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
lili wrote:Yes i would like to see the guild raid together, but because of members not progessing at the same rate, many members did find a group of friends who raids together. I for one will not force these people to break up the raid that they've been doing with the same people for months just so the few of the since then geared people can raid.
Just to clarify, does this mean that even once people have geared up for Kara as you've asked, you and group still won't raid with them?

If so, then the currently gearing up/recently geared up will need to make sure that they have a group of ten amoung themselves.

I'm just trying to make sure everyone's expectations are correct so there is no shock/ hurt feelings later.

~ Catherine

Return to “=US= World of Warcraft”