Are people in WoW groups considered full SSX or not?

[Magdalena]

Okay, as most of you know the Mannoroth group went through a huge ordeal where we had it repeatedly beaten into us that every group is SSX and there is no "we" or "you guys". Ok, got it, so I've been wandering around all the forums a lot more, not necessarily posting all the time but keeping up with what all is going on and posting occassionally. Digging through a posting about an WoW-EU player rejoining, I find this response from one of the moderators:

Considering Verigan never showed any interest in any of the other games, as well as the rest of the community outside WoW, it is obvious that he is not a part of SSX in any way whatsoever.

To be a member in another group, you either need to create it or apply for it (check in if already a member) with the members involved with it. None of that transpired, so it's pretty easy to deduce this.

Then this from another member:

It's not just reading and posting in the other forums. It requires to be a part of that group, ie playing the game, getting to know the people there and such.

Then again:

I do read the other forums and that but, I just don't post.

I was talking to Avator yesterday about the picture+information about yourself thread a few days ago...

Not nearly sufficient in order to be considered as any kind of a member of another group on any stretch of the imagination.

It's a nice try though.

I moved this here quoting because my comment isn't about whether or not Ver is allowed to rejoin the EU group, I don't even know the guy. My question though is one wondering how we're supposed to feel "like part of the bigger group" when we have a global moderator posting telling us we're not.

WoW is currently the only game I play and it is the same for most of the Mannoroth group I know, so that makes us not actual SSX members?
From the reply from another member, I can see this is thought through others as well, but this is not what we (The WoW Mannoroth group) were told in our recent discussions.

I would really just like to know which it is, are we SSX or not? Is this something that's going to change depending on the situation at hand and which stance would benefit a moderator's viewpoint the best?

Personally, I believe if we want everyone to consider themselves "One SSX", that has to start with those who have accepted "leadership" positions. For the most part, that seems to be the case, but this posting shows to me that the foundation hasn't been set before attempting to build the house.

Nothing personal against anyone quoted, just trying to clarify the missing information, be it the people in quotes or myself missing information here.

[base]

It seems to me, that if you care enough to even ask the question, you probably are more a part of SSX than if you never even considered it.

You see, the thing is, I could give up WoW tomorrow, yet whatever game i did go and play, I would no doubt be posting all about it on these forums, and trying to get you lot to play.

I don't think it matters what game you play, and from which game you joined SSX. what matters is that you are more attuned with the guild, than you are with the game.

at least, thats how I feel about it.

[Inquisitor]

If you are on the member list, you are a member.

If 2 people sponsor you in WoW, and you make it on the Member list in General, you are a member.

Veri was on, then off, then on again, then off again. I think 4 or 5 times now. Someone like that, who doesn't participate outside the game they are in, is demonstrating they are uninterested in a broader game group.

If he had on and off'd while playing a bunch of other games with us, or interacting with the community as a whole, the conversation might be different.

[Magdalena]

If you are on the member list, you are a member.

If 2 people sponsor you in WoW, and you make it on the Member list in General, you are a member.

Someone like that, who doesn't participate outside the game they are in, is demonstrating they are uninterested in a broader game group.

If he had on and off'd while playing a bunch of other games with us, or interacting with the community as a whole, the conversation might be different.

Normally Inquisitor you give a good even straight forward answer, that's what I was kinda hoping for but instead you drew the line and erased it again.
I took out the part naming Ver because while my question may have an effect on his situation, I'm not trying for another topic on whether or not he's allowed back in.

I too, as with most of Mannoroth group, do not play any other games with SSX and generally don't have a lot of interaction outside of this forum. I generally don't post just to post unless I'm picking on someone or joking around which seems to be somewhat banned outside of this group, so I've kept my mouth mostly shut. (Something that's usually very difficult for me as I'm sure you're learning by now)
I think I'm the only one opening my mouth about it, but I don't think I'm the only Mannorothian reading this right now and thinking it needs to be one or the other, not whichever is most convenient for influencing the direction you'd like a particular matter to go.
Lets face it, we're human... eventually I'm going to disagree with something someone on here says. I don't want to be told today I'm an equal member and then be told because of who the person is or the situation that "You know, you're not really a member because you only play WoW. You don't interact enough with the rest of the groups."
Then have the distasteful thought I'm having right now that "oh, when you wanted to control us and make us follow your rules we were SSX members, but now that it's more convenient for us not to be, we're not."

Even the best of friends fight and walk off from each other in a huff or for whatever reason simply walk away from each other for a while, a true friend when the air clears and they wanna start hanging out with you again, you go hang out with them and laugh. Sure, if they'd done something like steal money from you or be just a general jerk then yeah, you might use the "fool me twice, shame on me", but if all they were doing was going out and spending time with other friends, I wouldn't be telling them "No, you can either be our friend or their friend, but you can't be friends with both of us, and you aren't alowed to look for other groups of friends."

So, judging by yours and BD's statements I can't help but view this as saying those of us such as myself who don't play other games are not truely SSX members, whether or not their names are on the list, their status is ever shifting.
That's fine, at least I guess I know where I stand, kindof.

[sakuragi]

Mag,
just putting my dollar in and not 2 cents..hehee...
i am agreeing with u on this....questions is, what's going to become the rest of the ssx that's not on the forums often or choose not come on the forums....are they not part of ssx anymore because they choose not to participate on the forums? are they not part of the family becaose they don't want to come the forums even they have been sponsored by 2 people already?

[undrin2]

Edit: I belive my question is off topic and I do not wish to highjack this thread, but since I already posted it I will leave it. Please do not feel obligated to answer this question at this time. I think one of this kind of subject is enough at a time.


I guess my quesiton is this. Who makes the decison? I remember being told that the Guild as a whole was to make the decision if someone is to come back if they have left, or stay if there is a problem. In the case stated above it seems to me the Mods are making the decision against the opinions of many of the members. I do not see a true vote happening either. We on the Mannaroth server were told that the Guild not the mods nor the game Guild, i.e. WOW Mannaroth SSX, were to make a decision on thier own. Everyone was supposed to be invoulved. Maybe I took it wrong, but it seemed pretty clear to me at the time.

[Messiah]

Mag, I think you misunderstand Inquisitor. You are SSX. You were sponsored for membership and are considered a full member of the group.

The situation with Verigan is different. He was fully SSX, but he disavowed his membership several times. He did not say he was taking a break from WoW, or that he was going to give it up for good. Rather, he formally left the SSX with a declaration to that effect.

Even so, membership is still open to those who wish to return on good terms. There is some concern that Verigan has worn out our hospitality by his repeated leavings.

WoW is free to invite him to rejoin at any time. He is free to ask to join any other division at any time, but he must go through the sponsorship process again. This is required, again, only because he has renounced his membership repeatedly in the past. His forum access will not be pulled. Banning is rarely warranted and usually only so in cases of significant abuse.

[Inquisitor]

Sorry, let me clarify You are all members. Period.

Take Veri's case: He joined. Then left. Rinse, repeat. Rinse, repeat. Rinse, repeat. During that time he made no effort to be involved in this community other than to re-apply.

I personally consider people members until their intentions prove to me they are otherwise. Once you are on the list, you are on the list. Doesn't matter if you play other games at the time. If you leave, then rejoin, then leave again, expect an increasingly chilly reception on each new attempt to return.

I think Veri's conversation would haqve been different if say, he had also played other games. More people would have known him. We might have "put up" with multiple returns. Even saying that though, there is a limit to the "I quit!!!11 I am returned!!11."

That's the thing at issue with Veri. There's no rule about having to play other games. Had he faded away to return later, maintained some cordial contact with this community as a whole, the conversation wouldn't be happening, it would all be quiet and "welcome back" etc.

-edit-
Messiah beat me to it. I don't actually remember having created a rule saying you needed to be sponsored again in each new game group. People who play the game have to choose to play with you I suppose, I am uncomfortable with a blanket rule making people "re-apply" for each game, unless I have said something in the past that contradicts that I am old and senile, it could be....

undrin: The final deicison on membership in any game group should be the responsibility of it's moderators and members. You have to play with the people, so you have to live with your decisions. If that decision proves to be a mistake and it spills out of the game, you may get alot of unsolicited advice from guys like me on any specific instance.

[undrin2]

Whoo Hoo he called me Undrin "wish the old name worked".. not Undrin2...

Oh dang sorry off topic again. I will leave this thread be right now.

Peacefully leaving this thread so it can continue it's productive disscussion.

[Messiah]

Messiah beat me to it. I don't actually remember having created a rule saying you needed to be sponsored again in each new game group. People who play the game have to choose to play with you I suppose, I am uncomfortable with a blanket rule making people "re-apply" for each game, unless I have said something in the past that contradicts that I am old and senile, it could be....

Inquisitor is not senile. What I mean is that Verigan offically left the SSX, many times. He renounced his membership. While he is still a registered member of our forums, he is not currently a member of the SSX. He is free to chat with us here, but if he wants to be a full member of the SSX, he needs to go through sponsorship again. This is necessary because he is NOT currently a member of the SSX.

Now, WoW may have him back, which makes him SSX again. He may join another division, and they may sponsor him for membership. He may get to know the general community and become SSX in spirit and fact through his association. Remember, Verigan was not told "never return". He was told to keep up the good work and keep on the path. No one has given up on him.

[Magdalena]

Ok, got the member one (I think, may come back to that if need be later)

My head is spinning on the one Undrin2 asked though because I too remember being told the way it should've been done was post up here and all ssx decides except in cases where being an 'asshat' I think it was... in which can kick character temporaily then post for final decision...
later a group vote on vent was accepted for the what now decision for the incedent in question...
This merry-go-round makes my head hurt... make the world stop, I wanna get off... (No perves, I didn't mean THAT way)

As for entry to other games, didn't think there was a re-app requirement for that, see how easy you had it blade??
Don't know about other games, think our general rule has been they're SSX, they're in no question. Start causing problems with existing people and making game-play miserable aka being an asshat, we're gonna have some words...
A couple of people's children (talking 10 and well under) play... they're the only ones allowed to have a child's maturity level because if they get too bad their parents are also there...
husbands allowed by default only if we have direct access to speak to their wife and get them slapped when need be... wives required to be willing to slap their man when he needs it (this has never been a problem for this SSX group)...
If you question what punishments we will and won't use, see second picture in this thread and read comments carefully...
Trixster at his best

[Bladesinger]

Aside from Quiz's re-iteration, I'd like to add my thoughts. We are all SSX whether or not we participate in any sub-forum other than Mannoroth. The Mannoroth group is part of the SSX and being part of Mannoroth is being part of the SSX.

I would hazard a guess to say that many, if not most, active SSX play only one or two games at a time and aren't generally active outside of their game and maybe the general forum on occasion. Some folks like to be active in the larger group, others prefer to maintain a more intimate relationship with the guild and go from game to game as their interests change. Both are valid approaches to membership.

I think the situation in the previous example hinges on a member publicly leaving the guild and trying to come back multiple times rather than "game hopping" and keeping a generally low profile on the forums.

Regards,
Phil

[Messiah]

You're right, Mag. If you are SSX, you can join any division, no question asked (unless you start acting like an asshat). Verigan is not SSX. He gave it up. If he was SSX, he would be back in WoW now, no questions asked.

[Inquisitor]

Confusion sorted now?

[BlackDove]

Hmm I missed this one.

Inquisitor and Messiah clarified it enough I think.

As far as me posting about being members in other groups, you'll note I said "another" and not "bigger", which you missquoted or missunderstood.

No, you're not members of multiple groups. That's fine. You're still SSX, just like me, or anyone else. I'm not in your group either. That doesn't make me any less of a member, does it? I don't feel like I have to be in your group, and you shouldn't feel like you should be in any other group either. Naturally if I find myself in WoW though, and I live in the US (highly unlikely since I live in EU), personally I'll prefer your group over any other, but that's personal preference and up to me. Just like joining any other group is personal preference for you. However none of it changes the fact that we both have our names on the Big Wall (thread in general), therefore we're both in the same sauce.

However if we're going to explore this further, let's say hypothetically if you would choose to leave the SSX WoW US group now, you would not be SSX unless you stated that you wanted to remain SSX, reasons for wishing so, and in which way you wish to keep your presence. Naturally if you leave because we kick you then that doesn't quite work for obvious reasons, but otherwise there is really no reason for you to actively participate in an SSX group to be SSX. If you wish to leave, but still be on the memberlist, it's of course possible, and again, doesn't make you any less of a member.

Now when we come to Verigan, he played the quitting scenario in order to break the non-multiclanning rule that we have (wanted to group with someone else, can't do it while you're with us). He was solely involved with WoW and that limited him. When he left his last time, he left the only SSX group he was in, and he wasn't a member in any of the other groups nor had he any interest in them or active participation. He was gone.

However let's say hypothetically again that he was a member of another group, he was still SSX, and still wanted to play the quitting scenario in WoW. Each time he'd quit WoW and come back, the people responsible for the WoW group would need to review wether they wanted him back or not. Being SSX doesn't give you the priviledge to be an asshat and slip through (like someone above said), and personally in my opinion such actions would bring a persons member status in question (if I spotted it, I would bring it in question - which we can all choose to do) regardless of wether he's in other groups or not. When it's all happening for the first time, it's all good. Flags start going up when there are missmatching issues.

This isn't really brain surgery, all fairly simple stuff, just depends on a lot of circumstantial situations. And naturally in the end, it's up to either the group or the group moderators. Rarely, but sometimes, it can be up solely to the Arbiter as well.

That's the way I see it anyway. Hope it makes sense.

Note: After reading this, Inquisitor told me this might come off as "mean" for some reason. I didn't mean to phrase it that way. I just act like I have a stick up my ass when we discuss serious issues. Since these are mostly my personal opinions (where stated) coupled with common practices that we have, I try to keep it as serious as possible. Nothing mean meant about it.

[Padishar]

My head is spinning on the one Undrin2 asked though because I too remember being told the way it should've been done was post up here and all ssx decides except in cases where being an 'asshat' I think it was... in which can kick character temporaily then post for final decision...
later a group vote on vent was accepted for the what now decision for the incedent in question...
This merry-go-round makes my head hurt... make the world stop, I wanna get off... (No perves, I didn't mean THAT way)

As I stated many times before. The outcome for Trib would have been the same. It was the procedure that was wrong. Without going into his details I will just state:
The first vote was wrong because only 'officers' were invited instead of all US WOW SSX MEMBERS.
For all external appearances, it looked like you backdoored Trib. There were even SSX members online ingame at the time that didn't even know a vote was being held.
Even then, was your vote upturned? No, I truly believe your heart was in the right place and you were trying to do the right thing.
I simply asked in the future you let everyone know that a vote is being held and allow everyone to state there piece out in the open, not some hidden (old boys club) officer behind the scenes vote, backdooring members.

The difference the 2nd time? A time to hold a scheduled meeting was voted on here on the forums. A meeting was held on that scheduled time and everyone from US WOW SSX was welcome to join.
Nice, clean and out in the open and semi-worry-free

As for posting on the forums. I suggested that there are many of us, who have been doing this for a very long long time and you were a bit new at this......
Wanted to let you know that all you had to do was post your troubles here on the forums (remember at the time Mann rarely used these) and we would have gladly helped. Even could have stepped in and let you go back to playing if desired.
There would not have been the massive drama that ensued (or at least it would have been greatly shortened in length) and everyone could get back to their lives that much the sooner.

To keep these references together for future reading, this post relates directly to THIS and THIS.

I apologize if I didn't clarify well enough during that meeting. I had just woke up (3 mins before the meeting started) and was really really sick at the time.
Hopefully I have helped clear this up for you and undrin a lil

[Kon]

I've been on and off playing games with the SSX, and I'm very much considered a member. Heres a little timeline for the heck of it:

I joined the SSC FS2 division in November 2002

In March 2003 I played Freelancer with the SSC, but most of them went inactive by April.

For a long time (late 2003/early 2004?) I played no games the SSC played, as I had pretty much quit FS2 when PXO ended.

The SSX started (November 2004) and I played some Dawn of War, but the SSX only held interest in the game for a few weeks, and again I was not gaming with the SSX.

Just last month I got into Neocron, and am currently playing that with the SSX.

So while I have been here for years, most of my time has been spent not playing with the SSX. If you are active on the forums, or on IRC, or playing a game with SSX, or "pimping" your games to the SSX, you are a member.