I know both I and others have touched on this subject before, but I really do think this is important. I also have a few new ideas to pitch.
Our number of guild members is bound to expand as our ambitions for 20 and 40 man instances continue to grow. This is both great and exciting. However, Ive noticed a few problems in the past weeks. I hate to say it so bluntly, but I think invites may be being thrown out somewhat carelessly.
Yesterday, Alex and Jonis were home from school with snow days. A lot of us were on yesterday afternoon and we were all having very pleasant conversations with one another. Out of the blue, a character named Darcsin swore in guild chat. Liz politely asked him to refrain from the use of such words when we had youngsters online. The guy began speaking back to her with attitude, telling her to chill out man and that it wasnt that big of a deal. He never once apologized to my knowledge. For reasons unknown, but easily suspected, he left the guild about an hour later. This is the only jerk that Im aware of that slipped through our gates and into our channels. I dont even know who this guy is or where he came from. Im fairly certain he was recently admitted as someones questing buddy. This is important. I really believe that we need an evaluation process, even before the Initiate stage. Have the guy/girl group with us. I think its important for more than one SSX member to judge a persons compatibility with our standards and code.
Also, I think we need to address another invite issue. For the ones who broadcast Looking for a good guild etc., I think if were going to invite them, we need to get to know them first. Ive had people send me a tell asking if they could join my guild. I refer them to our forums to read Why SSX? and its as if theyre too lazy to alt-tab and go read a brief description. Ive been scolded in the past for telling someone that we werent currently recruiting. But I did this in hope to address this internal issue before we add possible fuel to the fire.
Would it be possible to create a new place for those wishing to join to post their intent and also information about themselves? Maybe have a week to let everyone see and have a chance to get to know the person before the final call is made. They can be invited into the guild and remain at the initiate rank during this time. Maybe have a vote on a set day of the week. Majority rules, officer only votes, or something like that. If everything goes well, the person is made a member. If not, we apologize that it isnt going to work out for us.
I think its important for us to collectively establish invite guidelines. And after doing so, well need to post these guidelines online like our Bladefist brethren have done.
Ive also recently witnessed the formation of in-guild cliques. Bonds between certain people are bound to be stronger with some than they are with others. This is a fact weve all experienced in life. Best friends are both assets and natural, and should be encouraged. But when we withdraw into our own social circles within the guild, it leaves others left out and often times hurt. Im just throwing out the idea that we shouldnt always feel the need to join separate vent channels unless the topic is private, or if were pvping or questing and dont want to annoy others with our constant chatter.
These cliques have also created resentments among a small variety of members. These concerns must be dealt with, because resentments can lead to isolation and the formation of yet another opposing clique. Im not saying its going to happen. Im just saying we need to be wary of these concerns. I hope by putting these concerns on the forums that I can get this topic out in the open and talked about.
I realize that the types of the people I have been talking about arent visiting the forums on a regular basis, and may not even have created an account here. This is just food for thought. Something I thought I owed you guys if it was on my mind. We have to share if we want to grow.
P.S. To touch up on the forum issue, I think we need to get everyone at least signed up. I may be wrong, but I think Phil and I are the only non-officers that are posting on our forums. I need to do more exploring on older threads, but I haven't seen anyone else yet.
Invites, Cliques, and Policies
Moderators: Global Moderators, WoW =US= Moderators
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Rlyan
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:19 pm
- Yahoo Messenger: nzckc
- Location: Virginia Tech
Invites, Cliques, and Policies
Chris Clarke
ckclarke@vt.edu
Where would you be if it weren't for all the druids' help in World War III?!
ckclarke@vt.edu
Where would you be if it weren't for all the druids' help in World War III?!
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lili
- Posts: 693
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 9:12 pm
- Location: The hospital
It's been a little hard to log in for me now a days, but every time I log on I see a new person I have never seen before. I'm glad the guild is growing but I agree that we need to have a closer look at these people. I have no objections to let new people in based on the fact that a member have been questing with another person, but at the first unjustfiable offensive conduct, that person should be kicked. Another problem I have is that I'm all about helping people but don't ask for my help and when I have to make you wait a bit before I can help you, I get booted from the group or get B*****ed out because it's not NOW NOW NOW. I suppose that's another reason why the game is not as fun as it was before. Also sometimes when I log on I just want to play by myself, so don't hold that against me and make me feel guilty because I don't respond to the "I need a lvl 60 to help me now" because I rather log off than deal with the constant "why won't you help me".
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undrin
- Posts: 438
- Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:34 am
First off I would like to applaud you for writing this post. Very good questions that I agree need to be addressed as soon as possiable for us. We have been growing quite a bit these last few months and I belive an open disscussion like this is the way to go.
On a side note yes, I do leave the main general chat in Vent because I do not always want to here multiple people talking about every step they take in the game. I do understand that is is very exciting for everyone especially thier first time around. But I also would like to play the game in peace while at the same time be able to make a comment once in awhile. Not all the time mind you. I in no way wish to not ever talk to everyone in Vent and like yesterday stayed on there for quite awhile before deciding on a more quite channel. I also belive that is the point of having a general chat. It is for those that would like to talk about anything at any time. The other channels are for those who do not want to. So to close on this. I belive that if anyone in SSX in WOW wants to join thier own channel so be it. Not everyone is going to want to talk constently or listen to others do the same. So leaving a channel for this reason is better than someone getting off vent completly. If they are in a Raid they need to be in the same one everyone else on the raid is in.
On a side note yes, I do leave the main general chat in Vent because I do not always want to here multiple people talking about every step they take in the game. I do understand that is is very exciting for everyone especially thier first time around. But I also would like to play the game in peace while at the same time be able to make a comment once in awhile. Not all the time mind you. I in no way wish to not ever talk to everyone in Vent and like yesterday stayed on there for quite awhile before deciding on a more quite channel. I also belive that is the point of having a general chat. It is for those that would like to talk about anything at any time. The other channels are for those who do not want to. So to close on this. I belive that if anyone in SSX in WOW wants to join thier own channel so be it. Not everyone is going to want to talk constently or listen to others do the same. So leaving a channel for this reason is better than someone getting off vent completly. If they are in a Raid they need to be in the same one everyone else on the raid is in.
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Magdalena
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:59 pm
- Location: Mannoroth, USA
Ok, Jack and I have been gone less than a week and we have cliques?? What happened?
As for voting on initiates to move to ssx member status, think the timeframe should be longer than a week and will definitely be all ssx members, not just officers because this affects everyone. Probably should require talks with at least 2-3 officers before invite is sent for a first level filter before assigning them initiate status...
Also, officers, need to start posting up here about someone and have them sign on up here before sending invite, let us know to watch for the new person, where they come from, etc.
Also, likely need to set a limit for number of initiates allowed at a time, we don't want the rapid growth syndrome others have experienced.
Last but not least, this is our primary form of sharing information... yes we're all on vent all the time, but people can easily be left out using vent. Everyone should at least have their account set up on here and check periodically... and all important data should be posted up: raid schedule changes, guild meetings, initiate announcements, new members, etc. Don't care if a member never makes another post up here other than to let us know they've signed up, how active on the forums they are is up to them, but do ask that they check up here periodically for important events...
Have ventrillo installed at least, even if you don't have a mic... people have no idea how much of the guild they miss out on when they don't have this one little tool... all of our guild runs are done talking through vent, and most of the casual conversations...
Those are my general thoughts on this... someone volunteering for getting together an official guild invites guide to be discussed at our next meeting?
As for voting on initiates to move to ssx member status, think the timeframe should be longer than a week and will definitely be all ssx members, not just officers because this affects everyone. Probably should require talks with at least 2-3 officers before invite is sent for a first level filter before assigning them initiate status...
Also, officers, need to start posting up here about someone and have them sign on up here before sending invite, let us know to watch for the new person, where they come from, etc.
Also, likely need to set a limit for number of initiates allowed at a time, we don't want the rapid growth syndrome others have experienced.
Last but not least, this is our primary form of sharing information... yes we're all on vent all the time, but people can easily be left out using vent. Everyone should at least have their account set up on here and check periodically... and all important data should be posted up: raid schedule changes, guild meetings, initiate announcements, new members, etc. Don't care if a member never makes another post up here other than to let us know they've signed up, how active on the forums they are is up to them, but do ask that they check up here periodically for important events...
Have ventrillo installed at least, even if you don't have a mic... people have no idea how much of the guild they miss out on when they don't have this one little tool... all of our guild runs are done talking through vent, and most of the casual conversations...
Those are my general thoughts on this... someone volunteering for getting together an official guild invites guide to be discussed at our next meeting?
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Rlyan
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:19 pm
- Yahoo Messenger: nzckc
- Location: Virginia Tech
The cliques I'm referring to are pretty specific and I don't like naming names. If you have any questions, just ask me on vent or in game.
Chris Clarke
ckclarke@vt.edu
Where would you be if it weren't for all the druids' help in World War III?!
ckclarke@vt.edu
Where would you be if it weren't for all the druids' help in World War III?!
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Bladesinger
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:53 pm
- Location: If I were a snake I'd have bitten you.
You beat me to it Rlyan! 
Being the heirarchical thinker I am I'm going to put my comments down in list form, in no particular order. Please read these knowing I understand that I'm new to this group and may still have things to learn about our population dynamics.
1. Invitations- I think we're growing too quickly. Growth is good, necessary, and exciting for a group of this nature. However, it's too easy for us to find someone we like playing with and after a couple quests ask an officer to send the person an invitation. The same goes for our real life friends.
We need to set up a stepwise progression for new member selection and initiation. I like the idea of:
1) Get the person on Vent so he/she can interact with us/listen to us and see what we're like Out of Character.
2) Post a thread with our behavior expectations/guidelines, history of the SSX and the WoW group, along with other pertinent info and require the potential member to read it carefully. The "Why the SSX?" is a great start. I feel strongly that every member should have a thorough understand of what the WoW group and the SSX as a whole are before sending a final request for invitation.
3) Must register and post a thread telling us about themselves, why they play WoW, and what they want out of a guild. I think it's just as important for us to know about them as it is for them to know about us before joining.
4) Possibly the stickiest: the potential must play with at least 4 SSX member for at least 3 sessions before being initiated. The members need not be the same people every time. Two of these members should be the ones to sponsor the potential. If this means that a potential only plays with one person per session, he/she must go through a minimum of 12 sessions, 3 with 4 different people, before we send the invitation.
This is meant to give the potential exposure to enough members so we get a good sense of who he/she is before inviting. The multiple session stricture is meant to avoid the trap of finding someone who's great over one session and then finding out later that he/she's not suitable membership material after he/she's joined already.
5) Limiting the number of Initiates at any one time. I think this is a great idea! If we grow too fast we lose sense of the group identity and risk losing that which made the group so great in the first place. If a potential wants to join bad enough he/she will wait in queue for the membership process to proceed. I feel this will show dedication to the group and will weed out people who are just looking for a "quick fix" as it were.
6) Put a length of time requirement on how long a potential is an Initiate. I think a week is too short a time, two weeks or even a month would be better. Our daily attendance is so dynamic that it's nearly impossible for a new member to be exposed to everyone in just a week. We need to all have the best opportunity possible to interact with new Initiates before voting on promoting them to full Member. (more on this in cliques)
To sum up 1)-6) A more rigorous initiation process is good for both the guild and the potential member. I think it's the tight-knit nature of the group that makes it what it is. As a whole we have a certain mindset, way we like to play the game, and a similar goal for playing. We need to maintain these things if we're to become what we have the potential of being, the best guild on our server. Exclusivity isn't a bad thing when it comes to groups like this. We have our own way of playing and other folks have theirs. If we allow anyone in we'll get the kinds of internal strife so rampant among guilds. By being selective we grow in numbers of like-minded people and that will only serve to strengthen the bonds between us so that as we grow we actually become closer and stronger, not more diffuse and weaker.
2:Cliques- I've seen this and have been guilty of it in this past month. WoW, it's already been a full month!
Some of this is due simply to level differences and people wanting to accomplish things with one character vs. another. When we're on a roll with a character and are trying to accomplish something like getting an Epic Mount, it can be nigh impossible to either a) take that character to help another or b) log onto another character and help a member out. There are also times when a group of characters fall into a groove and stay about the same level and have about the same quests. I fully understand all of these as I'm going through them right now.
I guess the question is how to deal with them? For myself, it's an easy answer. Since I can't yet go on instance raids with the group and Breadean needs a group to play with my Tr-Sat nights are free to help others with their quests. Ironically, the guild's "Off-Nights" are my "On-Nights".
Perhaps we should all commit to giving one night a week to helping other players with their quests? It might also be a good idea to have a thread where we each have a post to advertise quests we'd like help with that week. "I've got X Y Z quests and am looking for help with them, how about Monday night?" Creative editing on our part will keep responses reflecting the current quests wanted and our ability to help people on those quests while keeping the number of Want Ads to a minimum.
Lastly on this subject, we need to get at least one character per member up to lvl 60 as quickly as possible to allow the maximum number of people to play together at one time. Personally, knowing I can't participate in the large guild activities makes me want to play Breadean as much as possible and be as selfish as possible with my in-game time so that I can play with the group as quickly as possible. It seems somewhat of a contradiction to me.....
That's it for now, it's time to go hear more about the history of the earth. 4.6 billion years ago.......
Being the heirarchical thinker I am I'm going to put my comments down in list form, in no particular order. Please read these knowing I understand that I'm new to this group and may still have things to learn about our population dynamics.
1. Invitations- I think we're growing too quickly. Growth is good, necessary, and exciting for a group of this nature. However, it's too easy for us to find someone we like playing with and after a couple quests ask an officer to send the person an invitation. The same goes for our real life friends.
We need to set up a stepwise progression for new member selection and initiation. I like the idea of:
1) Get the person on Vent so he/she can interact with us/listen to us and see what we're like Out of Character.
2) Post a thread with our behavior expectations/guidelines, history of the SSX and the WoW group, along with other pertinent info and require the potential member to read it carefully. The "Why the SSX?" is a great start. I feel strongly that every member should have a thorough understand of what the WoW group and the SSX as a whole are before sending a final request for invitation.
3) Must register and post a thread telling us about themselves, why they play WoW, and what they want out of a guild. I think it's just as important for us to know about them as it is for them to know about us before joining.
4) Possibly the stickiest: the potential must play with at least 4 SSX member for at least 3 sessions before being initiated. The members need not be the same people every time. Two of these members should be the ones to sponsor the potential. If this means that a potential only plays with one person per session, he/she must go through a minimum of 12 sessions, 3 with 4 different people, before we send the invitation.
This is meant to give the potential exposure to enough members so we get a good sense of who he/she is before inviting. The multiple session stricture is meant to avoid the trap of finding someone who's great over one session and then finding out later that he/she's not suitable membership material after he/she's joined already.
5) Limiting the number of Initiates at any one time. I think this is a great idea! If we grow too fast we lose sense of the group identity and risk losing that which made the group so great in the first place. If a potential wants to join bad enough he/she will wait in queue for the membership process to proceed. I feel this will show dedication to the group and will weed out people who are just looking for a "quick fix" as it were.
6) Put a length of time requirement on how long a potential is an Initiate. I think a week is too short a time, two weeks or even a month would be better. Our daily attendance is so dynamic that it's nearly impossible for a new member to be exposed to everyone in just a week. We need to all have the best opportunity possible to interact with new Initiates before voting on promoting them to full Member. (more on this in cliques)
To sum up 1)-6) A more rigorous initiation process is good for both the guild and the potential member. I think it's the tight-knit nature of the group that makes it what it is. As a whole we have a certain mindset, way we like to play the game, and a similar goal for playing. We need to maintain these things if we're to become what we have the potential of being, the best guild on our server. Exclusivity isn't a bad thing when it comes to groups like this. We have our own way of playing and other folks have theirs. If we allow anyone in we'll get the kinds of internal strife so rampant among guilds. By being selective we grow in numbers of like-minded people and that will only serve to strengthen the bonds between us so that as we grow we actually become closer and stronger, not more diffuse and weaker.
2:Cliques- I've seen this and have been guilty of it in this past month. WoW, it's already been a full month!
Some of this is due simply to level differences and people wanting to accomplish things with one character vs. another. When we're on a roll with a character and are trying to accomplish something like getting an Epic Mount, it can be nigh impossible to either a) take that character to help another or b) log onto another character and help a member out. There are also times when a group of characters fall into a groove and stay about the same level and have about the same quests. I fully understand all of these as I'm going through them right now. I guess the question is how to deal with them? For myself, it's an easy answer. Since I can't yet go on instance raids with the group and Breadean needs a group to play with my Tr-Sat nights are free to help others with their quests. Ironically, the guild's "Off-Nights" are my "On-Nights".
Perhaps we should all commit to giving one night a week to helping other players with their quests? It might also be a good idea to have a thread where we each have a post to advertise quests we'd like help with that week. "I've got X Y Z quests and am looking for help with them, how about Monday night?" Creative editing on our part will keep responses reflecting the current quests wanted and our ability to help people on those quests while keeping the number of Want Ads to a minimum.
Lastly on this subject, we need to get at least one character per member up to lvl 60 as quickly as possible to allow the maximum number of people to play together at one time. Personally, knowing I can't participate in the large guild activities makes me want to play Breadean as much as possible and be as selfish as possible with my in-game time so that I can play with the group as quickly as possible. It seems somewhat of a contradiction to me.....
That's it for now, it's time to go hear more about the history of the earth. 4.6 billion years ago.......
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sakuragi
- Posts: 301
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:48 pm
SSX-Bladesinger wrote:You beat me to it Rlyan!
Perhaps we should all commit to giving one night a week to helping other players with their quests? It might also be a good idea to have a thread where we each have a post to advertise quests we'd like help with that week. "I've got X Y Z quests and am looking for help with them, how about Monday night?" Creative editing on our part will keep responses reflecting the current quests wanted and our ability to help people on those quests while keeping the number of Want Ads to a minimum.
Lastly on this subject, we need to get at least one character per member up to lvl 60 as quickly as possible to allow the maximum number of people to play together at one time. Personally, knowing I can't participate in the large guild activities makes me want to play Breadean as much as possible and be as selfish as possible with my in-game time so that I can play with the group as quickly as possible. It seems somewhat of a contradiction to me.....
oh man, that was so long to read that i skim through it..and found the first part of the quote and i am going to say, u can't say i don't help..lol....granted u probably didn't know which alt i was on...lol....
and the second paragraph, i don't think having one charc per member is enough...you need to be divers.....gotta bring the alt that the guild needs you in....hence the multiple alts that liz has.....we all bring something to the table....having another alt that's also lvl 60 benefits the guild as a whole....
on the side note, i am working on my alts to give the guild another pally and another priest if we ever need another.....that's why they are lvls 46 and 47....painful to lvl for me...for all those that know my style of playing....plus my lock at lvl 32...again, these are for the benefit of the guild to have no shortage in one particular class.....
personally, i ran through a lot of my alts by endless grinding and some questing...that's how i met some of the people on ssx...we all went questing/grinding together...just ask liz....i help her grind her priest(don't tell jeri, hehehe...) while at the same time i was grinding my rogue to lvl 60...it's just about spending time lvling, yes, it's brutal but everyone has been through it.....
grinding is tough...but it's doable.....trust me, i know..i grinded my mage from lvl 57 til lvl 60 without much help...lots of felwood baby!!! i grinding my hunter from lvl 50 til 60, and that's with lots of the crater/felwood too....i don't believe i have one alt that was in ssx from lvl 1...they were all pretty much around 30s when i joined them....
blade, it's all about grinding...just remember that....it's harder with a priest but u can do it.....u can do it all nite long....hehehe...
by the way, best time i noticed to grind is between 6am til noon on a weekday..no none really around...plus no hordes to mess with u...or so i have noticed....
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Magdalena
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:59 pm
- Location: Mannoroth, USA
Blade,
Most of what you wrote I agree with, but there are a couple of differences I see that would make it fit more to our group dynamic...
1) Real Life Friends and Family -
Family and friendship has always been what this group is all about, and I think everyone agrees this is what we want to ensure we keep. While I do think these people need to go through the same process from changing from initiate status to becoming a member, I don't believe they should be put on a waiting list to become an initiate. It's pretty obvious that if they're your real life friend/family they're coming to the group for the right reason. Perhaps question this if they've been playing the game for a while and haven't asked about making the change previously, then we'd have reason to ask "Why didn't you play with them before and why are you choosing to now?" My main reason for this is if the group gets to be popular, I don't want people's RL friends/family waiting in line behind joe blow off the street, presenting one of the top complaints I see on the current EU reasons for people leaving. Allowing these type of people without question is how the group has gotten to where it is, and I don't think that's something we as a group want to lose as it would be turning away from our roots.
2) Cliques/self-focus prior to having a level 60 -
I think it's understood in this game at least until you get your first character to level 60, you're going to be a little self-focused as there's generally not a lot you can do for many people. Keep an eye out for people lower than you, but its understood you're trying to get up there so you CAN play with everyone else.
Notice though that I didn't say self-centered, and yes there is a difference. A self-focused person would be putting the majority of their focus on working their character up to 60, they would not however expect everyone else to be focused on their character too. Asking for help if you get stuck is not a problem and nobody is going to look down at you if you do, they will do their best to help you when they can. However, this is also not to be abused... If they say they're doing something at the moment, don't bug them every 5 minutes about it and don't throw a temper tantrum. I can almost guarantee you'll never get your help if you do so, on top of likely getting a report about an attitude problem. Also, if it continues the person will likely either never reach member or if already a member, be removed very soon. There was a time we were a lot more tollerant of this sort of thing, but the person (a random pick-up) ended up
ninjaing items in several lower end groups and almost got our entire guild blacklisted with other guilds. Not the type of reputation we want.
3) Cliques/self-focus after level 60 -
This flat out shouldn't be happening as far as I'm concerned. Of course you'll be closer to some people, but this is the point where you are able to play with the rest of the group. How to put this down in rules is tough, but here's what we've always done before and its worked and kept things light and fun.... you get online, look at who's online... see what can be done with said group, out of those things how many people in the group need something in each... go to whichever benefits the most people in the group. There are a couple of exceptions... when quests are still needed for attunement to the other instances those tend to get looked at first unless waiting on someone else who also needs it... these are onyxia key, mc attunement, and bwl attunement... the reason is simple, these allow them to not get left out of the big group instances...
If there's not enough people online to do anything, check with lower levels and see if they need help with any quests or anything...
definitely need to post up needs list and keep it updated somehow...
probably 3 separate lists, one for lower level character quests, one for the key lvl 60 quest lines, and one for level 60 blue equipment needed
Getting some great thoughts going here guys... keep 'em flowing
Most of what you wrote I agree with, but there are a couple of differences I see that would make it fit more to our group dynamic...
1) Real Life Friends and Family -
Family and friendship has always been what this group is all about, and I think everyone agrees this is what we want to ensure we keep. While I do think these people need to go through the same process from changing from initiate status to becoming a member, I don't believe they should be put on a waiting list to become an initiate. It's pretty obvious that if they're your real life friend/family they're coming to the group for the right reason. Perhaps question this if they've been playing the game for a while and haven't asked about making the change previously, then we'd have reason to ask "Why didn't you play with them before and why are you choosing to now?" My main reason for this is if the group gets to be popular, I don't want people's RL friends/family waiting in line behind joe blow off the street, presenting one of the top complaints I see on the current EU reasons for people leaving. Allowing these type of people without question is how the group has gotten to where it is, and I don't think that's something we as a group want to lose as it would be turning away from our roots.
2) Cliques/self-focus prior to having a level 60 -
I think it's understood in this game at least until you get your first character to level 60, you're going to be a little self-focused as there's generally not a lot you can do for many people. Keep an eye out for people lower than you, but its understood you're trying to get up there so you CAN play with everyone else.
Notice though that I didn't say self-centered, and yes there is a difference. A self-focused person would be putting the majority of their focus on working their character up to 60, they would not however expect everyone else to be focused on their character too. Asking for help if you get stuck is not a problem and nobody is going to look down at you if you do, they will do their best to help you when they can. However, this is also not to be abused... If they say they're doing something at the moment, don't bug them every 5 minutes about it and don't throw a temper tantrum. I can almost guarantee you'll never get your help if you do so, on top of likely getting a report about an attitude problem. Also, if it continues the person will likely either never reach member or if already a member, be removed very soon. There was a time we were a lot more tollerant of this sort of thing, but the person (a random pick-up) ended up
ninjaing items in several lower end groups and almost got our entire guild blacklisted with other guilds. Not the type of reputation we want.
3) Cliques/self-focus after level 60 -
This flat out shouldn't be happening as far as I'm concerned. Of course you'll be closer to some people, but this is the point where you are able to play with the rest of the group. How to put this down in rules is tough, but here's what we've always done before and its worked and kept things light and fun.... you get online, look at who's online... see what can be done with said group, out of those things how many people in the group need something in each... go to whichever benefits the most people in the group. There are a couple of exceptions... when quests are still needed for attunement to the other instances those tend to get looked at first unless waiting on someone else who also needs it... these are onyxia key, mc attunement, and bwl attunement... the reason is simple, these allow them to not get left out of the big group instances...
If there's not enough people online to do anything, check with lower levels and see if they need help with any quests or anything...
definitely need to post up needs list and keep it updated somehow...
probably 3 separate lists, one for lower level character quests, one for the key lvl 60 quest lines, and one for level 60 blue equipment needed
Getting some great thoughts going here guys... keep 'em flowing
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lili
- Posts: 693
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 9:12 pm
- Location: The hospital
I agree with Mag that family and friends should come first in line. That's how we got most of our player. Ex: Iceberg. Always liked to make fun of him IRL, but it's much more fun making fun of him with other people in game. He has brought over two of his lvl 60's and his nephew's lvl 60 joined along with his sister's lvl 60 and his sister's boyfriend's lvl 60. They ran with us one time before they joined so they can get see how we ran and they loved us. They left their guild pretty much the next day to join us. I personally see no reason for someone like that to wait in line to become a member of the guild.
As far as getting everybody to lvl 60 as fast as they can. Us ones with lvl 60 characters are willing to help as long as we got time, but keep in mind that we had to grind ourselves to lvl 60 and it took a long time. Also keep in mind that having a lvl 60 to run you through all your quests actually lessen the amount of experience you get. What I usually do is when I get all of the quests I can get for one instance I'll then ask for help to do all those quests at once. After that I'll run the same instance with pick up groups to get max amount of exp out of that instance as I can. (Except for SM cause it's a hassle to get there without a mount.) (And of course I completely skip ST just because I hate it.) And once lvl 55 ish reached you can pretty much run almost all of the instances with lvl 60's cause we can do most of the instances blindfolded by now. But you'll still need to grind on your own because those instances will be run in raid and you might not be able to get a lot of exp.
As far as getting everybody to lvl 60 as fast as they can. Us ones with lvl 60 characters are willing to help as long as we got time, but keep in mind that we had to grind ourselves to lvl 60 and it took a long time. Also keep in mind that having a lvl 60 to run you through all your quests actually lessen the amount of experience you get. What I usually do is when I get all of the quests I can get for one instance I'll then ask for help to do all those quests at once. After that I'll run the same instance with pick up groups to get max amount of exp out of that instance as I can. (Except for SM cause it's a hassle to get there without a mount.) (And of course I completely skip ST just because I hate it.) And once lvl 55 ish reached you can pretty much run almost all of the instances with lvl 60's cause we can do most of the instances blindfolded by now. But you'll still need to grind on your own because those instances will be run in raid and you might not be able to get a lot of exp.
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Magdalena
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:59 pm
- Location: Mannoroth, USA
Finally able to log back in last night and am sad to say I saw a lot of new faces and it looked like a very divided guild after a week of being gone. Had just recruited a few new people before my week off, and saw at least another 3-4 besides them last night. Need to stop recruiting guys... get this group blended in before we bring in anyone else, friend and family or not...
I'd say put a halt on new invites until the end of February due to the large number of new people we just received... start up a waiting list if necessary, but get to know these people and make sure their hearts are in SSX before inviting anyone else.
Also, we need to figure out a direction and make some actual decisions...
seems to me like the group is divided into 2.. those that want to keep creating alts and getting them to 60 and those that want to progress on to running raids and stuff with the 60s we already have.
I'm guilty of several alts out of boredom, but what I want is to use the level 60 I have and have worked a long time on. Logging on repeatedly to do nothing with that character has me very bored with WoW right now...
I don't want us to be a group that only cares about raids, but we used to get together and do stuff together... whether it be going to upper end instances on raid nights, going to strat, ubrs, scholo, or dm on other nights... whatever the case may be.
Also, we need to make a decision about our alliances as a group and either go or not go as a group if we're online... they're serving as something dividing us right now on those nights.
All of this needs to be done fairly soon so further adverse effects don't happen to our group, better to catch it early now than let it fester and divide.
I'd say put a halt on new invites until the end of February due to the large number of new people we just received... start up a waiting list if necessary, but get to know these people and make sure their hearts are in SSX before inviting anyone else.
Also, we need to figure out a direction and make some actual decisions...
seems to me like the group is divided into 2.. those that want to keep creating alts and getting them to 60 and those that want to progress on to running raids and stuff with the 60s we already have.
I'm guilty of several alts out of boredom, but what I want is to use the level 60 I have and have worked a long time on. Logging on repeatedly to do nothing with that character has me very bored with WoW right now...
I don't want us to be a group that only cares about raids, but we used to get together and do stuff together... whether it be going to upper end instances on raid nights, going to strat, ubrs, scholo, or dm on other nights... whatever the case may be.
Also, we need to make a decision about our alliances as a group and either go or not go as a group if we're online... they're serving as something dividing us right now on those nights.
All of this needs to be done fairly soon so further adverse effects don't happen to our group, better to catch it early now than let it fester and divide.
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Bladesinger
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:53 pm
- Location: If I were a snake I'd have bitten you.
1- Friends and Family Plan: I'm with you 95%. When I was writing that dissertation I was thinking about random public people and didn't even consider the F+F though. I think family should be let in without delay, or put at the front of the line for consideration, for sure.
Friends can be a little more problematic. As we grow we'll be getting more and more friends added to our network. If we let every friend of every member right in without seeing how they fit with the guild as a whole vs. with that individual member we could run into some compatibility issues. What may be good for one person may not be good for the group as a whole.
How about this generalization?
Least time in queue: family < friend of member < random public person
2) Leveling, Grinding, and Alts: I get ya there too. I didn't mean that to come across as a plea for everyone in the guild to help me level so I wouldn't have to go through the process myself. I just used myself as an example.
Personally, I'd love to see each account full of characters at lvl 60 so we have the sort of diversity that will keep things fun and interesting for everyone. I feel that each member should have at least one 60 though to help increase the feeling that any individual can contribute something to the group at all times. Whether that be raiding or helping other members get things done it doesn't matter since each player will have a character that can do both.
Grinding is a fact of the game, I know. I do it a lot solo with my Velloraena and as much as I can with Breadean. What I don't get is doing it alone. When I log in and see clusters of level groups, 20-30, 30-40 online but not playing together it makes me wonder. We've all got quests and we all need to grind, why aren't we doing them together?
The argument can be made that different characters have different quest lines going on at any particular time. That's true and is a valid argument. My counter to that would be that you're grinding while helping another player quest. If we all need to both quest and grind, everyone benefits from being grouped. A couple nights ago I was tooling around with Obel and Kegslayer while they were questing and had a blast! It was pure grinding for "Magnet Boy". I didn't get any quests done in that time but more important for me was the time spent playing with guild-mates and helping contribute something to their progression.
The other night I got close to 2 levels playing with Liz, Paul, Sam, and some with Steve and Weili. Some of us had the same quests, others were just there for the XP/to help out, but we were all playing together and I'm pretty sure Liz, Paul, Sam, and I all leveled at least once. Weili may have too and Steve was 60 so he was our Good Samaritan.
I also agree with the "Respect the lvl 60s" sentiment. You have things you're trying to accomplish too that are just as important to you as to those of us at lower levels. It's not cool to expect someone to cater to you just because they've put their time in before you. Quite the opposite, respecting that prior effort is very important in my opinion. Personally, I feel bad asking folks of higher level for help, and when I do, I try to get things done as quickly as possible.
3) Want Ads: Could we put up a separate sub-forum like Bladefist's Recruitment forum? That way each member/character could have a dedicated thread without clogging up this main sub-forum. Keeping each thread updated would be the responsibility of the person who's character it's about. As long as we can all go back and clear out text from prior responeses those threads won't get unwieldly.
Regards,
Phil
Friends can be a little more problematic. As we grow we'll be getting more and more friends added to our network. If we let every friend of every member right in without seeing how they fit with the guild as a whole vs. with that individual member we could run into some compatibility issues. What may be good for one person may not be good for the group as a whole.
How about this generalization?
Least time in queue: family < friend of member < random public person
2) Leveling, Grinding, and Alts: I get ya there too. I didn't mean that to come across as a plea for everyone in the guild to help me level so I wouldn't have to go through the process myself. I just used myself as an example.
Personally, I'd love to see each account full of characters at lvl 60 so we have the sort of diversity that will keep things fun and interesting for everyone. I feel that each member should have at least one 60 though to help increase the feeling that any individual can contribute something to the group at all times. Whether that be raiding or helping other members get things done it doesn't matter since each player will have a character that can do both.
Grinding is a fact of the game, I know. I do it a lot solo with my Velloraena and as much as I can with Breadean. What I don't get is doing it alone. When I log in and see clusters of level groups, 20-30, 30-40 online but not playing together it makes me wonder. We've all got quests and we all need to grind, why aren't we doing them together?
The argument can be made that different characters have different quest lines going on at any particular time. That's true and is a valid argument. My counter to that would be that you're grinding while helping another player quest. If we all need to both quest and grind, everyone benefits from being grouped. A couple nights ago I was tooling around with Obel and Kegslayer while they were questing and had a blast! It was pure grinding for "Magnet Boy". I didn't get any quests done in that time but more important for me was the time spent playing with guild-mates and helping contribute something to their progression.
The other night I got close to 2 levels playing with Liz, Paul, Sam, and some with Steve and Weili. Some of us had the same quests, others were just there for the XP/to help out, but we were all playing together and I'm pretty sure Liz, Paul, Sam, and I all leveled at least once. Weili may have too and Steve was 60 so he was our Good Samaritan.
I also agree with the "Respect the lvl 60s" sentiment. You have things you're trying to accomplish too that are just as important to you as to those of us at lower levels. It's not cool to expect someone to cater to you just because they've put their time in before you. Quite the opposite, respecting that prior effort is very important in my opinion. Personally, I feel bad asking folks of higher level for help, and when I do, I try to get things done as quickly as possible.
3) Want Ads: Could we put up a separate sub-forum like Bladefist's Recruitment forum? That way each member/character could have a dedicated thread without clogging up this main sub-forum. Keeping each thread updated would be the responsibility of the person who's character it's about. As long as we can all go back and clear out text from prior responeses those threads won't get unwieldly.
Regards,
Phil
Shattered Star since 1998
Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman
Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman
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sakuragi
- Posts: 301
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:48 pm
in regard to the want ads..
i think what we should do is something like this....let's say ur lvl 30-40, and post a thread to say, "Guild instance" and then pick a instance between those lvls...so you can do SM and Uldaman or something..and pick a time...that way, one of the lvl 60s can run lower lvls through or what not...so the whole week we would either do only sm and/or uldaman for the lowbies so they can finish their quest and what not.....that way, each week we have a new instance designed to help lower lvl guildies......but that's just a thought....
phil, i understand that part about all the lvl 30-40s doing their own thing...but sometimes, u just wanna play by urself....when u usually see me on my lower lvl, i am on cause i want to play by myself with no distractions....granted that's not always the case..but if i am, that's usually why.....otherwise, i would be trying to get into AB, AV or helping out others with my lvl 60s.....i remember helping obel and kegslayer grind with my priest.....anyways, that's just my 2 cents...
i think what we should do is something like this....let's say ur lvl 30-40, and post a thread to say, "Guild instance" and then pick a instance between those lvls...so you can do SM and Uldaman or something..and pick a time...that way, one of the lvl 60s can run lower lvls through or what not...so the whole week we would either do only sm and/or uldaman for the lowbies so they can finish their quest and what not.....that way, each week we have a new instance designed to help lower lvl guildies......but that's just a thought....
phil, i understand that part about all the lvl 30-40s doing their own thing...but sometimes, u just wanna play by urself....when u usually see me on my lower lvl, i am on cause i want to play by myself with no distractions....granted that's not always the case..but if i am, that's usually why.....otherwise, i would be trying to get into AB, AV or helping out others with my lvl 60s.....i remember helping obel and kegslayer grind with my priest.....anyways, that's just my 2 cents...
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Magdalena
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:59 pm
- Location: Mannoroth, USA
Breadean,
Nobody was accusing you of being one of those abusers... they're few and far between with our group, the stress was put there because it needs to be added into overall rules since they do indeed exist. You've never been one that I know of and don't feel bad asking for help... nothing to feel bad about and we're glad to help where we can and do have fun doing it.
Chances are, if you're getting a lot of help from different people you're likely doing it right... most tend to start quickly ignoring requests from those doing it wrong. If you find yourself asking questions like "why can I never get any help when I ask for it?" you probably want to look at how and/or when you're asking.
An example... I was helping you and a few others through gnomer a little bit ago with my level 60... someone else hopped on asking for help... I explained I was helping other guildies atm so I couldn't help them right then... most people's response would be something like "ok, think you could help me when your done if its not too late?" instead, the response I got was "Its good that you're helping people and all but maybe sometimes help someone else too" followed by the person logging off shortly thereafter. In this example, the person logs in once in a blue moon and usually while something else is already going on. Understand their time online must be limited according to how often they log on, however, they shouldn't expect others to stop what's already going on to bend to their time limit. This isn't the first time they've done something similar and their membership status will likely be up for discussion soon.
Another example... different person and different circumstances... on an alt rolling with someone helping them with their quests and getting exp at the same time... they got to the point of needing VC, had another member volunteer to come help us run it real quick, I had just gotten an even level so I said give me a few seconds to go get my new abilities before we go... they got upset and dropped the group consisting also of a non member they were running with leaving me to excuse them. Since this was a first offense I had a talk with them regarding the way we treat our members... haven't seen or heard of them since so unsure if attitude had any change, they were apologetic somewhat so it was dropped for the time being but noted. (This was their first or second day invited in.)
Neither of these members have made it to be signed up and vouched for here on the forums, they're both random public people someone came across while leveling. If improvements aren't made, they'll never make it up here and likely won't be in guild in game very long either.
As for the separate area like bladefist has for recruiting, we had one when we first got this forum put up, I believe it was removed because it hadn't been used at all. If we start getting people creating applications on here, I'm sure it won't be a problem to get it set back up... but as of right now we don't have any... would say we'd have to enforce using it prior to invites before we ask them to put it back up. For right now, I'm going to put 2 announcements in this section (to be moved there when we start using it), one titled Welcome new initiates - for those brought in under initiate status (not to be added to SSX membership yet), the other titled welcome - new members for those who have been moved from initiate status to full members. Would likely suggest a 3rd later as we grow entitled current waiting list when we get one. Would suggest the promotions happen once a month for easy tracking while starting weekly meetings to review current initiates so that any that do happen to cause problems can be removed sooner so less damage to morale is done. (Of course higher priority incidents such as last weeks person's outburst would result in immediate removal by any officer account online, just post what happened in the initiates thread so those not online can look there and see if they are later confronted by the issue.)
I'd also say it has to be 100% of the people at the meeting either for the new member or neutral due to not having spent much time with them, one vote against them results in them not getting in. This may seem harsh to some, but the reason I say that is that currently the group all gets along very well... put conflict between just 2 people can start to change that dynamic though and can quickly become a domino effect. Of course, expect the person voting against them to be willing to have a valid reason behind their vote and willing to share it there with everyone.
I'm going to put those announcements there temporarily until we can have a guild meeting and determine exactly what process we all want to use for this... I don't have names to add to them though because I haven't been on for all of these new additions the past week. Do me a favor guys... if you invited someone recently, post up their name and a little bit about them in the initiate section...
Nobody was accusing you of being one of those abusers... they're few and far between with our group, the stress was put there because it needs to be added into overall rules since they do indeed exist. You've never been one that I know of and don't feel bad asking for help... nothing to feel bad about and we're glad to help where we can and do have fun doing it.
Chances are, if you're getting a lot of help from different people you're likely doing it right... most tend to start quickly ignoring requests from those doing it wrong. If you find yourself asking questions like "why can I never get any help when I ask for it?" you probably want to look at how and/or when you're asking.
An example... I was helping you and a few others through gnomer a little bit ago with my level 60... someone else hopped on asking for help... I explained I was helping other guildies atm so I couldn't help them right then... most people's response would be something like "ok, think you could help me when your done if its not too late?" instead, the response I got was "Its good that you're helping people and all but maybe sometimes help someone else too" followed by the person logging off shortly thereafter. In this example, the person logs in once in a blue moon and usually while something else is already going on. Understand their time online must be limited according to how often they log on, however, they shouldn't expect others to stop what's already going on to bend to their time limit. This isn't the first time they've done something similar and their membership status will likely be up for discussion soon.
Another example... different person and different circumstances... on an alt rolling with someone helping them with their quests and getting exp at the same time... they got to the point of needing VC, had another member volunteer to come help us run it real quick, I had just gotten an even level so I said give me a few seconds to go get my new abilities before we go... they got upset and dropped the group consisting also of a non member they were running with leaving me to excuse them. Since this was a first offense I had a talk with them regarding the way we treat our members... haven't seen or heard of them since so unsure if attitude had any change, they were apologetic somewhat so it was dropped for the time being but noted. (This was their first or second day invited in.)
Neither of these members have made it to be signed up and vouched for here on the forums, they're both random public people someone came across while leveling. If improvements aren't made, they'll never make it up here and likely won't be in guild in game very long either.
As for the separate area like bladefist has for recruiting, we had one when we first got this forum put up, I believe it was removed because it hadn't been used at all. If we start getting people creating applications on here, I'm sure it won't be a problem to get it set back up... but as of right now we don't have any... would say we'd have to enforce using it prior to invites before we ask them to put it back up. For right now, I'm going to put 2 announcements in this section (to be moved there when we start using it), one titled Welcome new initiates - for those brought in under initiate status (not to be added to SSX membership yet), the other titled welcome - new members for those who have been moved from initiate status to full members. Would likely suggest a 3rd later as we grow entitled current waiting list when we get one. Would suggest the promotions happen once a month for easy tracking while starting weekly meetings to review current initiates so that any that do happen to cause problems can be removed sooner so less damage to morale is done. (Of course higher priority incidents such as last weeks person's outburst would result in immediate removal by any officer account online, just post what happened in the initiates thread so those not online can look there and see if they are later confronted by the issue.)
I'd also say it has to be 100% of the people at the meeting either for the new member or neutral due to not having spent much time with them, one vote against them results in them not getting in. This may seem harsh to some, but the reason I say that is that currently the group all gets along very well... put conflict between just 2 people can start to change that dynamic though and can quickly become a domino effect. Of course, expect the person voting against them to be willing to have a valid reason behind their vote and willing to share it there with everyone.
I'm going to put those announcements there temporarily until we can have a guild meeting and determine exactly what process we all want to use for this... I don't have names to add to them though because I haven't been on for all of these new additions the past week. Do me a favor guys... if you invited someone recently, post up their name and a little bit about them in the initiate section...
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Bladesinger
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:53 pm
- Location: If I were a snake I'd have bitten you.
I'm sorry, I again, I didn't mean something the way it came across. I'm working on my communication skills, really I am!As for the separate area like bladefist has for recruiting, we had one when we first got this forum put up, I believe it was removed because it hadn't been used at all.
What I was asking is if we could create a Want Ad sub forum, in the same manner that BF has their recruitment forum. That way we'll have a separate place for each member to post his/her requests without bogging down this forum.
Regards,
Phil
Last edited by Bladesinger on Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Shattered Star since 1998
Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman
Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman
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Bladesinger
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:53 pm
- Location: If I were a snake I'd have bitten you.
sakuragi wrote:in regard to the want ads..
i think what we should do is something like this....let's say ur lvl 30-40, and post a thread to say, "Guild instance" and then pick a instance between those lvls...so you can do SM and Uldaman or something..and pick a time...that way, one of the lvl 60s can run lower lvls through or what not...so the whole week we would either do only sm and/or uldaman for the lowbies so they can finish their quest and what not.....that way, each week we have a new instance designed to help lower lvl guildies......but that's just a thought....
I think that's a fabulous idea.
Yeah, I realized I missed that point as soon as I was on my way to class.phil, i understand that part about all the lvl 30-40s doing their own thing...but sometimes, u just wanna play by urself....when u usually see me on my lower lvl, i am on cause i want to play by myself with no distractions....granted that's not always the case..but if i am, that's usually why.....otherwise, i would be trying to get into AB, AV or helping out others with my lvl 60s.....i remember helping obel and kegslayer grind with my priest.....anyways, that's just my 2 cents...
It's understandable and wholely acceptable to want to play alone. When half the folks in the on-line list are within 10 levels of eachother and are in 6 different areas though, I still wonder. Invitations are easy to decline if a person's on to solo.Shattered Star since 1998
Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman
Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman
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sakuragi
- Posts: 301
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:48 pm
SSX-Bladesinger wrote:sakuragi wrote:in regard to the want ads..
i think what we should do is something like this....let's say ur lvl 30-40, and post a thread to say, "Guild instance" and then pick a instance between those lvls...so you can do SM and Uldaman or something..and pick a time...that way, one of the lvl 60s can run lower lvls through or what not...so the whole week we would either do only sm and/or uldaman for the lowbies so they can finish their quest and what not.....that way, each week we have a new instance designed to help lower lvl guildies......but that's just a thought....
I think that's a fabulous idea.
i did try that too...i think only liz and jeri benefitted from that 2 weeks that i ran sm with them...lol...anyhow, i am up for it....i have no problems helping out...
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ScarletRahl
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:52 pm
- Location: Michigan
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sakuragi
- Posts: 301
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:48 pm
well, my impression was slow down, not stop....as long as we are careful and know who you are inviting, i don't see why u can't invite them....i mean, we know and ran instances with archons..and from my understanding, we are welcoming them if they decide to join us on the dark side.....that's what i figured in our guild meeting back when we first started having guild meetings.....