to inform the members about current issues

Sofia · Post by **Sofia** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:43 pm

We mods had a long chat today we knew was coming forth in /o concerning some issues. For my own part i suggested somethings along the lines of: "You want the guild to pull together, let them know theres an issue, but dont punish the whole guild for the behavior of a minority." So this post is meant to get some attention outside of us geeks in /o & to give it in the hands of the whole guild as it should be! If you take interest in the SSX-WoW grp this concerns you!

All mods agree on the annoying behaviour of certain ppl we refer to as leeches -.- Take Ony yesterday for a simple example where a good junk of the Ony raid dropped as we progressed to BWL, or the simple fact that we have NO problem at all to fill the weekly MC raid, no matter how long it takes. This is annoying beyond the bearable.

However, we certainly did NOT agree on the measures how we intend to deal with the problem. From dramas bygone i witnessed our habit to make a drama out of a mere problem & im so sick of it!

One solution would have been to stop MC entirely & go on a crusade against the leeches. In my opinion the habit i refered to - pointless drama & oppesed to what we want to achiev.

Another solution mentioned was to balance the motivation with dkp. Simply award more dkp for BWL than MC. This was perceived as taking advantage of the leech behavior & therefor the WORSED solution. I agree on this part.

As we dont want a single person to dictate or threaten this group, something that wont happen ever, & as i cant imagine us to start to PUNISH ppl... i want to apply to the whole groups INTEREST!

We are no hardcore guild, nor will this group ever consist of pure hardcore players... a lot of our mates are casual players or ppl with just reasons concerning rl to drop out of a raid. Thats fine & noone would blame you.

However, if we want to progress further... DONT let other ppl work on the hard encounters to leech off their hard work in return. This wont be tolerated.

This is meant in the first place as a call for commen sense! We hold the value of friendship & equality high... with some measures taken & behaviour showed lately i see these values in danger. Dont let it happen.

Unimatrixx · Post by **Unimatrixx** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:15 pm

Maybe a good time to start working a lil bit with raid attendences % ? That'll sort a bit out.. So after 2 weeks from now someone wants to join MC and have been in MC for the past 2 weeks but not BWL then don't invite him for MC till he/she went too BWL 8[.. Sounds like a better soltion instead of quiting MC because ppl who do go to BWL don't get punished.

Not a perfect solution but maybe the right one~

Galador · Post by **Galador** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:21 pm

I think it is very mature of you Sofia to give the whole WoW grp a clear picture of what is happening and what the current issues/concerns in /o are.

I try to be online everyday and bar this weekend and occasional IRL activities I try to give as much as I can to the whole raid and to SSX as a whole.

Honestly I can't think of a solution right now to stop leech behaviour except the best path of them all - common sense, uplifiting what SSX stands for and a genuine strong desire to see SSX advance in whatever it is doing (currently progressing through BWL).

Guys, this is a strong appeal to us all - SSX is a wonderful community. Before entering mods tried to verify whether we constitute SSX material or not - now is the time of truth - let us affirm our roots in this community and respond as best as we can to this plea. I am confident that we will make it only if we all work for it together. And I believe we will.

Unimatrixx · Post by **Unimatrixx** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:56 pm

It has nothing to do with maturity, only that he is stating facts everbody can do.. Whats up with the sucking up too everybody, in fact if you can't think of a solution why bother to post at all.. You talk like you speak for everybody, well you don't.

~And yes, if i don't like something i'm straight and put it right up in ur face instead of whining about it againts others. We have an issue with communication in the guild and thats a problem that should be looked at..

Tata, have a pleasant evening~

Galador · Post by **Galador** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:10 pm

Unimatrixx wrote:It has nothing to do with maturity, only that he is stating facts everbody can do..

It has imo cos the alternative was for the mods to keep such issues to themselves and decide for all without consulting the guild as a whole leading to the big dramas we have seen in the past. I see Sofia's post as a mature one and a move in the right direction of mods communicating with the whole guild.

Unimatrixx wrote: Whats up with the sucking up too everybody, in fact if you can't think of a solution why bother to post at all.. You talk like you speak for everybody, well you don't.

Excuse me? Why all this hostility? Honestly Uni, if you have some issues with me just tell me (in-game or /w or w/e) - flaming me on the forum and saying I am sucking up when I am just voicing my opinion is simply not understandabale and acceptable. Nowhere did I speak for anyone but myself and you won't be the one to stop me from saying what I think.

Unimatrixx wrote: ~And yes, if i don't like something i'm straight and put it right up in ur face instead of whining about it againts others.

I don't know if you are referring to me but I am not a whiner and if I have an opinion/concern I just say it just as I did on thhe PVP issue.

esd · Post by **esd** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:19 pm

Unimatrixx wrote:It has nothing to do with maturity, only that he is stating facts everbody can do.. Whats up with the sucking up too everybody, in fact if you can't think of a solution why bother to post at all.. You talk like you speak for everybody, well you don't.

~And yes, if i don't like something i'm straight and put it right up in ur face instead of whining about it againts others. We have an issue with communication in the guild and thats a problem that should be looked at..

Tata, have a pleasant evening~

If you can't say anything constructive, say nothing. If you don't like things being brought out into the public, one can only assume you have something to hide.

Given various conversations I've had, I'm going to move this to Members.

Sofia · Post by **Sofia** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:36 pm

Unimatrixx wrote:We have an issue with communication in the guild and thats a problem that should be looked at.

Actually true.

Dispite that, ppl know me for beeing straight & reasonable... otherwise i wouldnt have posted, but beyond that theres nothing i can do.

The "solution" im looking for has to come out of the members, every single one.

You want to be equal, treat everyone equal... & dont f*** over your mates.

- edit -
As a sidenote: We will keep an eye on the raidattendence & im not looking for proposals what we should do. This post was meant to INFORM you that there is an issue & by god, to reconsider your behaviour towards raids if you recognize yourself in the problems stated.

Post by **Inquisitor** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:14 pm

I would like to see the WoW member ship discuss this though, if we can let them discuss it here without too much interference, that would be a good.

Call it a test of their leadership and fortitude.

Keep it civil, but do dicsuss it and DO try and resolve it. We're watching

Gryphon · Post by **Gryphon** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:17 pm

Unimatrixx wrote:It has nothing to do with maturity, only that he is stating facts everbody can do.. Whats up with the sucking up too everybody, in fact if you can't think of a solution why bother to post at all.. You talk like you speak for everybody, well you don't.

~And yes, if i don't like something i'm straight and put it right up in ur face instead of whining about it againts others. We have an issue with communication in the guild and thats a problem that should be looked at..

Tata, have a pleasant evening~

I don't really believe that the attitude was called for, there is a point in there though. The WoW guild does have something of an issue with communication, but not so much that people don't pipe up, it's juts that some of you are more outspoken than others, and there's often a conflict of attitudes.

If DKP abuse is becoming an issue, then don't use it. For the time being, Put the items in the bank, and decide for ypurselves who is most deserving. If that doesn't work, just don't hand out the gear.

Full stop.

I'd like to think I'm correct in teh assumption, that most people are in the raids for the Items, but the items aren't the only important things to them, and I'm sure they could live without a 1 in 40 chance of getting it, at least for a little while.

Those that actually enjoy doing things together will profit immeasurably in knowing that even though there's no reward there, they're still they're for each other, honing thier skills, and generally becoming better players. The only people I can see complaining are the epic monkeys.

Sure everyone wants one, but I'm sure that everyone is patient enough to wait a while longer. Those that aren't, and cause a fuss are there for the items, and therefore most likely not the kinda guys we'd like to see in teh SSX.

Uni, You can make excellent points a lot of the time, it's just that sometimes you come off a little arrogant.

Tata, have a pleasant evening~

That reeked of smug sarcasm. And it's infuriating to see oneupmanship on a forum like this.

I'll say it again. We've rarely had problems with attitudes and materialism before the WoW group. I'm not saying the WoW group is a bad apple, I am saying that people seriously need to look at themselves, and thier attiudes. I can think of at least 6 People who fall under this category.

Let's chill peeps.

Dodotorpedo · Post by **Dodotorpedo** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:13 am

Unimatrixx wrote:Maybe a good time to start working a lil bit with raid attendences % ? That'll sort a bit out.. So after 2 weeks from now someone wants to join MC and have been in MC for the past 2 weeks but not BWL then don't invite him for MC till he/she went too BWL 8[.. Sounds like a better soltion instead of quiting MC because ppl who do go to BWL don't get punished.

Not a perfect solution but maybe the right one~

Not a solution at all imo. Broodlords going down soon. Say we have a leecher, he'll just do MC and then he'll go to the BWl run on witch we do RG/Vael/Broodlord, plenty of DKP and epics there...

Gryphon wrote: If DKP abuse is becoming an issue, then don't use it. For the time being, Put the items in the bank, and decide for ypurselves who is most deserving. If that doesn't work, just don't hand out the gear.

The items have to be given to a player within about 20 minutes after killing the boss or the items will dissapear. If a person gets the item it can nolonger be traded to other people.

Not handing out the good gear that drops would be bad for our raid progression, we may not need epix to continue in BWL but it sure helps a lot...

And I don't understand why you'd flame Galador's post Uni, Reread what he said and what you said and think about it. I expect an apology to him from you sometime soon ;/

Meline · Post by **Meline** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:22 am

Personally I think it is very bad to come to MC and onyxia and directly when people find out we are doing bwl afterwards they immediatly find some reason to leave. It is completely ok for me to leave if you have a valid reason, but else it is just unacceptable.

Why are people so afraid of BWL? Having fun? Conquering new bosses? Feeling a part of a successful raid cheering after downing a new boss? Actually the epics that kicks MC epics' ass?
Oh I forgot. "Zomg my repair costs".

I think that people who on purpose skip the bwl raids shouldn't be able to follow to MC or atleast have a lower priority.

It's so damn lame to ignore bwl untill some players worked their asses off to learn all about bwl and when we finally get it on farm the people ignoting it will go:
"Bwl is so fun, can I come?".

Get a grip of yourselves and for once try doing the only thing in this game that actually recuires skills and is a challenge. You will be amazed about how fun it is

Galador · Post by **Galador** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:30 pm

Maybe re-instating weekly raid applications where one states till what time he can stay online for which days may help this problem. In this way if one applies and says he is available till say 11:30pm for raiding he will be expected to remain till that time regardless of what the raiding plans are hence diminishing the dropping off phenomenon after Onyxia for example. Also, the raid leaders can have a clear idea what ppl to expect online for each day and till what times and can decide what raids to set up on which days that week.

Dunno if this is viable... just a suggestion...

Gryphon · Post by **Gryphon** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:55 pm

Galador wrote:Maybe re-instating weekly raid applications where one states till what time he can stay online for which days may help this problem. In this way if one applies and says he is available till say 11:30pm for raiding he will be expected to remain till that time regardless of what the raiding plans are hence diminishing the dropping off phenomenon after Onyxia for example. Also, the raid leaders can have a clear idea what ppl to expect online for each day and till what times and can decide what raids to set up on which days that week.

Dunno if this is viable... just a suggestion...

On paper it's good, but no plan like that survives contact with pretty much anything

For the most part it should work pretty well, but you will still get droppers off (tiredness, parents, spouses and partners, PUB!)

There's no easy way around it, but the fact your all posting and making an effort is a step in the right direction.

Yuri · Post by **Yuri** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:14 pm

Well wednesday is usually MC day and you can garantee that there's going to be tons of people online wanting to go, so why dont the mods randomly switch raid days?
Example: lots of people (leechers included) log in on wednesday for MC, invites starts and we get a full balanced raid "sorry folks, no MC tonight make your way to BWL please". If anyone tries to drop out, its obvious why.

Other then that, I dont have any other suggestions as to how to deal with the problem. Maybe only having DKP for BWL is a good way to go, or stopping MC for a few months. A problem with the latter is that we miss out on cores ect though, unless we do trash mob farming.

Sofia · Post by **Sofia** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:05 pm

The point is not to take advantage of the leech behaviour in any form or shape, but to get rid of it.

Linkie · Post by **Linkie** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:08 pm

i havent been on for 2 days * girlfriend over here and my mom turing 50 O.O yes she old

* and i dont do MC Ony or BWL * yet ^_^* but i really dont think this guild desirves to "die" do to some ppl that take advantage of the guilds good spirit and if i come on with any solution to the problem i will post it here at this moment i dont really know what is exactly happining so i dont want to look stupid * i know i already do

* so pls mods solve this without us really notice and let the guild stay together

i will help when i can just let me know ^_^

SoulSeeker · Post by **SoulSeeker** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:20 pm

Bwl is all to do with greed ,epixx yes but i mean to be able to do bwl u need to spend cash(gold) on repairs etc ...success dosent come without a price.

'Our' problem is we are gold greedy not all of us but most, say a warrior says 'i have 15g repairs but only have 20g to my name,i cant afford bwl next time'
Do we say ok i'll pay ur repairs for u if u'll come ...most of us dont and imo thats not very SSX.

I have 185g in my wow bank atm i'll pay ur repairs but cant afford 40 of u :P

The guild needs to bind more and get this 'my' mentality out of the door.

Unimatrixx · Post by **Unimatrixx** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:25 pm

1. Bwl on wednesday is like no option since it takes a lot of time and most ppl can't play long.

2. Quiting mc is like i said before a punishment for the people who do go Bwl.

3. Re- instating raid applications will make my raiding come to an end as i cannot applicate whilst not knowing what is/or coming on my agenda that day.

4. Why i got pissed off was for serveral reasons, one of them is that people mostly talk around the subject instead of really doing something with it.

Sofia · Post by **Sofia** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:32 pm

SoulSeeker wrote:Bwl is all to do with greed ,epixx yes but i mean to be able to do bwl u need to spend cash(gold) on repairs etc ...success dosent come without a price.

'Our' problem is we are gold greedy not all of us but most, say a warrior says 'i have 15g repairs but only have 20g to my name,i cant afford bwl next time'
Do we say ok i'll pay ur repairs for u if u'll come ...most of us dont and imo thats not very SSX.

I have 185g in my wow bank atm i'll pay ur repairs but cant afford 40 of u :P

The guild needs to bind more and get this 'my' mentality out of the door.

ty shin... well said once more.

Dodotorpedo · Post by **Dodotorpedo** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:42 pm

I find it quite weird how there are ALWAYS enough people during weekdays and never enough during weekends? when people can actually sleep late?
I can come during the week if I get lucky and some thinks in school dropout, Xelrash and Shoarmabob can't come during weekdays. They can only work their asses off in BWL making about 8 DKP in 2 nights couse they can only come on Friday saturday couse as it is:

We do MC wednesday. Most DKP earned
We do BWL Thursday, down the easy bosses. About 20 DKP earned atm, will be more when we get Broodlord.
We do BWL Weekend (Some players can only play at this time): we play all day to down 1 boss but fail, we try again on Saturday and finally get him down awarding us 8 DKP.

Yet still we ALWAYS come to BWL if we can, working our asses off for the raid so please... really if your lucky enough to be able to attend to the highly-rewarding MC/BWL DKP raids, atleast help us out in return by doing the HARD things aswell. You can't just SIT BACK and let us do all the learning and bossclearing so you can get easy epix, really THINK ABOUT IT! ;/

Sofia · Post by **Sofia** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:09 pm

I took the time to speak with a lot of my friends throughout various guilds. Every single one is struggling / experienced the same in their past, when the guild moved on to conquer BWL & apperently to a far worse extend. In some cases the guild is simply unable to put even a full raid together for BWL.

This issue was resolved either by force or by taking advantage of greed. Mind you that most guilds out there are a dictatorship. /gkick ftw

These comments actually speaks in favor of SSX & considering the fact that Broodlord (3rd encounter in BWL) is as good as dead & the drakes afterwards hardly seem to be a challenge, we already progressed further than most guilds without any punishment / pressure usualy enforced. This shows clearly that the ominous leeches are a minority in SSX & most ppl are willing to show dedication in favor of our guild rather than their own greed.

We are so good in inventing our own dramas, seems like we need them for some reason.

Now if the few mates who leech off the rest may get a grip of themselfs... ty!

Caspae · Post by **Caspae** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:39 pm

the '' dkp leeches '' in guild will soon all be noticed... Perhaps talking to them and making clear raiding like this with them is unacepttable and that if they wish to continue ... attitude change . As seen @ br attempts:
several people logged off when : BWL fell... These are leeches... mods can easily have a private convo with them to sort the problems out .
My opinion.

Kon · Post by **Kon** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:40 pm

Many people may be unable to do BWL. It is a step up from MC, and not everyone may be equiped to deal with that. Maybe they think that they would be a burden to the raid, or maybe they just don't think dying every two seconds because they have bad gear, and eventually resulting in broken gear is fun.

Unimatrixx · Post by **Unimatrixx** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:10 pm

Dodotorpedo wrote:I find it quite weird how there are ALWAYS enough people during weekdays and never enough during weekends? when people can actually sleep late?
I can come during the week if I get lucky and some thinks in school dropout, Xelrash and Shoarmabob can't come during weekdays. They can only work their asses off in BWL making about 8 DKP in 2 nights couse they can only come on Friday saturday couse as it is:

We do MC wednesday. Most DKP earned
We do BWL Thursday, down the easy bosses. About 20 DKP earned atm, will be more when we get Broodlord.
We do BWL Weekend (Some players can only play at this time): we play all day to down 1 boss but fail, we try again on Saturday and finally get him down awarding us 8 DKP.

Yet still we ALWAYS come to BWL if we can, working our asses off for the raid so please... really if your lucky enough to be able to attend to the highly-rewarding MC/BWL DKP raids, atleast help us out in return by doing the HARD things aswell. You can't just SIT BACK and let us do all the learning and bossclearing so you can get easy epix, really THINK ABOUT IT! ;/

Erhm look, at weekdays i indeed got more time then on the weekends.. I can only see my friends/family in the weekend and no game/person can stop me from doing that so we can make Bwl.. Offcourse i want to see progress in our guild but that's not "always" possible for me at weekends.

Real life > Games.

Dodotorpedo · Post by **Dodotorpedo** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:20 pm

Unimatrixx wrote: Erhm look, at weekdays i indeed got more time then on the weekends.. I can only see my friends/family in the weekend and no game/person can stop me from doing that so we can make Bwl.. Offcourse i want to see progress in our guild but that's not "always" possible for me at weekends.

Real life > Games.

I'm not talking about the people who have valid reasons not to come on weekends, I'm talking about the people who R to lasy too.