Several topics were discussed in this weeks meeting, this post is to share the decisions made so that everyone can know the new outlines that were made for the topics we've had on the forums for a while now.
Recruiting and Membership status
Status Rankings:
Initiate: An initiate is a person that is looking to join SSX and getting to know the members to ensure both that SSX is right for them and that they are the right fit for SSX. Due to still being in a 'trial' period, they are not given a vote on topics at this time.
Member: A member is a person who has gone through the initiate status and determined to be a good fit for SSX. They should have an account set up on the forums and have the necessary vouches from SSX members to be added fully to SSX. They also have an equal voting right in all meetings and decisions within SSX-Mannoroth.
Veteran: A veteran is not given any additional priviledges, however is considered an honorary position. These people have shown complete embodiment of SSX, have been with the guild and consistently willing to help others where they can. This is simply a recognition of the person's contributions to the community as a whole.
Officer: An officer has the added ability to invite/remove members when necessary as discussed during the meetings. This is a position mostly of responsibility as they are the ones who attempt to work out disputes and you can bring any concerns you might have to them. They are expected to uphold a mature attitude and set an example for other members. Veteran status is required prior to requesting officer status, if a person has veteran status and wishes to take on the responsibility of Officer they can ask this at any time and it will be brought to vote at the next guild meeting.
Guild Master: Guild Master is a necessary position in WoW to have the guild open, and there can be only one. They have the ability to promote and demote officers. Other than this, generally they are to be thought of as another officer. It is a position of honor and they are felt to be by most members the heart of SSX-Mannoroth.
Becomming a Member:
Becoming a member of SSX-Mannoroth is not something that is taken lightly. It takes a certain type of person to become part of the family, as this is a very close group of people. It takes no special equipment or level, but it does take a lot of heart. Having heart for your fellow guildies as well as people in general is the absolute strongest consideration for becomming a member of SSX-Mannoroth. In the hopes of maintaining the closeness that has always been in this group, several standards have been decided on to ensure we get to know each person as an individual in order to ensure they make a good fit for the family.
In order to become an initiate you must get to know at least 1 full SSX member fairly well and they must ask that you be invited into the guild.
There will be a maximum of 5 initiates allowed into the guild at any given time. There is a potential for rare exceptions to be made for special cases but this will have to be voted on to allow for an exception and will only be on very special cases.
Votes to promote people from initiate to member status will be held weekly and be voted on by all SSX-Mannoroth members.
A person must be an initiate for at least 2 weeks before a vote is taken to possibly promote them to member status.
A minimum of 75% of the meeting must vote yes to promote an initiate to member status and there must be no negative votes. People abstaining from the vote are counted as neutral, neither positive or negative.
If there is even one negative vote, a primary and secondary officer will be assigned at that time to mediate between the two and try to come to a resolution to whatever the issue is.
If 50% or more of the members voting have negative votes, remediation will not be attempted and they will be removed from the guild.
Instances where one person keeps saying no and everyone else says yes will have to be dealt with on a case by case basis depending on the situation. There are too many variables to set a standard for this happening.
An initiate will go through a maximum of 4 votes before something has to be determined. This will be dealt with on a case by case basis looking at why their vote keeps getting pushed forward, but something has to be decided at this point.
There must be a minimum of 7 members present at a meeting before a vote can be taken, with at least 3 of those members having to be officers.
If someone has voiced a concern against an initiate, they must be present as well or have someone knowing their current vote status for that particular initiate to be voted on.
Someone being a jerk:
If there is a problem where someone starts being aggressive towards people and harassing people, being general jerks, they are to be given a warning to stop. If they do not stop, then any officer can remove them from the guild to prevent further issues. This is to be talked through at the next meeting to discuss if removal needs to be permanent or temporary. The officer that removes them should post on the forums immediately the circumstances surrounding the removal to let everyone else knows what is going on.
Meeting Minutes
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Magdalena
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Meeting Minutes
Last edited by Magdalena on Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BlackDove
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Hmm, you seem to have thought this out nicely and I like all of it, but I need to take issue with the "Veteran" position.
Those "honorary" types of positions have never worked out while I've been around, and quite frankly, if they're not serving a factual purpose, there's no need for them.
Initiate is first step, that's fine, and the SSX member is the final step. An officer is a trusted member of the group who is to take responsibilities with any work that needs to be done. The "Officer" would be equated to the position of Moderators on the board (and I'd assume the officers are the moderators of the board as well - or some of them anyway).
The "Master" is usually the one who formed the group, oversees everything and has the ultimate responsibility for everyone and everything, therefore is the most highly tasked member, hence justification for him holding that position. The "Master" is also to be approved of by the majority to be one. That would be equal to the position of Arbiter we have.
Now the above, you can do as you please with and treat those two ranks as it works for you and your WoW guild. That's just the way I'd look at it.
But "Veteran" - there is no need for. There is no "contributing member" and therefore by proxy an "ordinary member". We're all members and that is that. A rank like that serves no purpose but to create envy or overexertion where it isn't due from people who would be "Members".
No member is inferior to another. We all contribute in our own ways.
So that's my only issue, unless I'm overlooking something.
Those "honorary" types of positions have never worked out while I've been around, and quite frankly, if they're not serving a factual purpose, there's no need for them.
Initiate is first step, that's fine, and the SSX member is the final step. An officer is a trusted member of the group who is to take responsibilities with any work that needs to be done. The "Officer" would be equated to the position of Moderators on the board (and I'd assume the officers are the moderators of the board as well - or some of them anyway).
The "Master" is usually the one who formed the group, oversees everything and has the ultimate responsibility for everyone and everything, therefore is the most highly tasked member, hence justification for him holding that position. The "Master" is also to be approved of by the majority to be one. That would be equal to the position of Arbiter we have.
Now the above, you can do as you please with and treat those two ranks as it works for you and your WoW guild. That's just the way I'd look at it.
But "Veteran" - there is no need for. There is no "contributing member" and therefore by proxy an "ordinary member". We're all members and that is that. A rank like that serves no purpose but to create envy or overexertion where it isn't due from people who would be "Members".
No member is inferior to another. We all contribute in our own ways.
So that's my only issue, unless I'm overlooking something.
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Fosters
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i agree with black dove in most respects the verteran position is lame duck and really serves no purpose but to incite jealousy and competition. on the other hand i think that it can be used efectively to show when an officer is on their alt. if all the alts of the officers are the only veterans than all the members will always know when an officer is on even if the character the officer is currently on is not their "officer character"
just a thought
just a thought
John 10:10
"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly."
Fosters 60 arcane/ frost mage (pwns noobs)
tuckandroll 60 NE Druid 41 resto (heals noobs)
and a host of alts
"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly."
Fosters 60 arcane/ frost mage (pwns noobs)
tuckandroll 60 NE Druid 41 resto (heals noobs)
and a host of alts
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lili
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Fosters we did talk about keeping verteran position as offers's alts but then it comes the time when the only offer that can invite in on an alt that they play often and is in an instance. We decided that it's better to just promote the alts that we play the most often as an officer and if we stop playing just demote the alt. Another issue is with knocking out the veteran position is the fact that we'll have to demote and I rather not demote alex or anybody else for that matter, but demoting our younger palyer is going to be the most challenging to say the least. As we said at the meeting the position is not meant to give anyone any specical power just there when you got nothing better to do and want to help out. I know we are all suppose to help one another but we are not setting it as a requirment that you have to put in so many items in the bank or must help the low guildies out a certain numbers a week. We do attact people who are willing to help so it's never been aproblem for us, but since we are growing bigger, I think having somthing like verteran is not a bad idea. As I said my main thing is I don't want to demote our already verterans who clearly earned that position by mag's earlier posting.
Forgive me if there's any misspelling or gramer problems I'm still on my 24 hour call at the moment.
Forgive me if there's any misspelling or gramer problems I'm still on my 24 hour call at the moment.
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BlackDove
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That's a good idea.Fosters wrote:i agree with black dove in most respects the verteran position is lame duck and really serves no purpose but to incite jealousy and competition. on the other hand i think that it can be used efectively to show when an officer is on their alt. if all the alts of the officers are the only veterans than all the members will always know when an officer is on even if the character the officer is currently on is not their "officer character"
just a thought
And you have a problem right there if people think that being an SSX member is a demotion.lili wrote: As I said my main thing is I don't want to demote our already verterans who clearly earned that position by mag's earlier posting. .
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Magdalena
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Blackdove... the person lili is referring to is an 8 year old kid, and the only real concern in doing away with veteran status.
The listings here were mainly only to give people an idea what the different levels are, these are what we've been using for some time now and have not had any problems with this. Obviously, if an 8 year old kid has the status its not something we're very strict on, but it does let new members and initiates easily identify those that have been with the group for a bit. This is a status that every member should receive after being with the group for a while, and was discussed and decided upon by the membership of mannoroth prior to being put up here. Many ideas, including foster's were thrown around and this was decided as the best way to go.
I will bring up the concerns however at our next meeting, but being the outcome of this posting came around through over 3 hours of discussions by the majority of our membership (all were invited, of course not all are always able to attend), its not something I forsee them wanting to change unless it becomes a problem. No matter what, we do know that demotions will not be a consideration due to the forementioned 8 year old. It is called a demotion because in game that is exactly what it tells you if your status is changed from veteran to member.
All that being said, I have come up with another idea while writing this... perhaps it could be used to signify small children's accounts like alex, letting people know when guild chat needs to be kid friendly... nobody could have hurt feelings with this use and we wouldn't have to demote little alex. Our older members who have veteran status would surely understand the change, but that is far more than we can expect for a child.
Please keep in mind that not being in with the group in game at this time does present a certain handicap in knowing all situations which must be considered, such as your response to lili's posting about alex. While everyone currently in the game knows alex is an 8 year old kid, that was impossible for you to know prior to your post, thus resulting in the harshness regarding him thinking of being an ssx member as being a demotion. Our group does have several people's very young children playing the game as well, and we strive on letting these parents (who also are members of SSX and play) know that their children are in a safe haven when playing with this group. They will always be our first consideration, and I nor any other member would dream of putting alex for example in the position of being demoted, he would not understand the reasoning and politics behind this, and none of us expect him to.
There are many thoughts such as this discussed during meetings before a decision is made that may or may not be stated with the final results. It would have been impossible for me to include all 3+ hours of this discussion in a post that anyone would consider reading through.
The listings here were mainly only to give people an idea what the different levels are, these are what we've been using for some time now and have not had any problems with this. Obviously, if an 8 year old kid has the status its not something we're very strict on, but it does let new members and initiates easily identify those that have been with the group for a bit. This is a status that every member should receive after being with the group for a while, and was discussed and decided upon by the membership of mannoroth prior to being put up here. Many ideas, including foster's were thrown around and this was decided as the best way to go.
I will bring up the concerns however at our next meeting, but being the outcome of this posting came around through over 3 hours of discussions by the majority of our membership (all were invited, of course not all are always able to attend), its not something I forsee them wanting to change unless it becomes a problem. No matter what, we do know that demotions will not be a consideration due to the forementioned 8 year old. It is called a demotion because in game that is exactly what it tells you if your status is changed from veteran to member.
All that being said, I have come up with another idea while writing this... perhaps it could be used to signify small children's accounts like alex, letting people know when guild chat needs to be kid friendly... nobody could have hurt feelings with this use and we wouldn't have to demote little alex. Our older members who have veteran status would surely understand the change, but that is far more than we can expect for a child.
Please keep in mind that not being in with the group in game at this time does present a certain handicap in knowing all situations which must be considered, such as your response to lili's posting about alex. While everyone currently in the game knows alex is an 8 year old kid, that was impossible for you to know prior to your post, thus resulting in the harshness regarding him thinking of being an ssx member as being a demotion. Our group does have several people's very young children playing the game as well, and we strive on letting these parents (who also are members of SSX and play) know that their children are in a safe haven when playing with this group. They will always be our first consideration, and I nor any other member would dream of putting alex for example in the position of being demoted, he would not understand the reasoning and politics behind this, and none of us expect him to.
There are many thoughts such as this discussed during meetings before a decision is made that may or may not be stated with the final results. It would have been impossible for me to include all 3+ hours of this discussion in a post that anyone would consider reading through.
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lili
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Bladesinger
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I feel Veteran status is an excellent way of indicating two things:
1. Length of time a member has been active in the guild.
2. How available that person has made himself/herself to help the rest of the guild out.
I like the idea of making each member who has been active for a certain large amount of time (ie a year or so) a Veteran to indicate that.
If folks are helpful enough above and beyond the usual friendliness of SSX Mannoroth then they should probably be offered the Officer position. If they don't want to be Officers then they don't have to be. Chances are high that such folk have been with the group long enough to have Veteran status, and if not, they're certainly mature enough to understand what it really means and will wait a couple months if it's truly important to them.
1. Length of time a member has been active in the guild.
2. How available that person has made himself/herself to help the rest of the guild out.
I like the idea of making each member who has been active for a certain large amount of time (ie a year or so) a Veteran to indicate that.
If folks are helpful enough above and beyond the usual friendliness of SSX Mannoroth then they should probably be offered the Officer position. If they don't want to be Officers then they don't have to be. Chances are high that such folk have been with the group long enough to have Veteran status, and if not, they're certainly mature enough to understand what it really means and will wait a couple months if it's truly important to them.
Shattered Star since 1998
Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman
Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman
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Inquisitor
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Ah, hear it is.
Let me reproduce what I sent in a PM to Mag, I was braindead when looking for the thread:
We're not the SSC, so we don't have a rigorous "no ranks" rule. Be very careful implementing it though, ask if you really need it, make sure you do. We don't have the rule, per se, but that doesn't mean it was a bad concept to eliminate ranks. Vets should be vets because they help, and they should be expected to continue to help. Then again, members should too.
My nickel.
Disclaimer: Relax a little, it's a discussion, a debate, try not to turn it into an argument
Let me reproduce what I sent in a PM to Mag, I was braindead when looking for the thread:
But honestly, formally distinguishing them from members may lead to "why am I not a Veteran??!!??" questions, which begin to sound like "why am I not a leader/colonel/moderator/etc."If you want to have a "rank" make it a responsibility, rather than a reward. Veterans should expect to help newbies, for instance. Something like that. "Rank" as a reward is the part that never works well, people start expecting to be treated differently and often feel entitled to treat others differently.
Otherwise, wihtout the dramatics that BD used, I agree with him, it's superfluous.
My nickel, take it for what it's worth.
Seems like things are going well, though, congrats
We're not the SSC, so we don't have a rigorous "no ranks" rule. Be very careful implementing it though, ask if you really need it, make sure you do. We don't have the rule, per se, but that doesn't mean it was a bad concept to eliminate ranks. Vets should be vets because they help, and they should be expected to continue to help. Then again, members should too.
My nickel.
Disclaimer: Relax a little, it's a discussion, a debate, try not to turn it into an argument
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lili
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I think the things is that we wanted something in writing of what each "rank" is. No one have a problem with how the ranks are and that's pretty much how we've been doing them. It's just something for the new initiates to read how we thought of it. As stated it's not really a rank at all, all the members, vets, officers, and even the guild master have the same say in how the guild is.
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ScarletRahl
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I am a parent of one of your young members, my son is only 6 yrs old and he is very spiecal to the guild as is Alex..... the would not understand why we would demote them. They way it has been has worked ofr us over here. Any rather it be a int. to GM is all the same the rank has NEVER been an issuse. We are all equal and treat as so.
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Inquisitor
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Padishar
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Not only thought things out, but did a great job! Alot of important decisions were needed (and was) made. Fantastic 
Out of 3+ hours of meetings, only one thing is a concern.... Thats it? That is FANFLIPPINGTASTIC!!!!
How is that not kewl?
hehe
Pleeeeaaaasssseeee, don't look at others debating a decision you made as a flame, or intruding, or as an order.
A suggestion or a debate, is NOT an order.
Noone is mad or bossing folks around, the opposite is actually true.
Folks are trying to look out for your rights, my rights, all members rights.....
Shouldn't that actually make you feel more secure, instead of angry or upset?
Anytime a postion (rank) is made, and it 'could possibly' be abused very very easily...... people SHOULD have a little concern about it. (more then a little
)
I am quite positive if no one was concerned at all, we will have a game one day that just screams "how did we go so wrong and neglect these people!?!?" and they would be so un-SSX/family like that they would be unrecognizable to the rest of us.
Much thought is necessary in creating extra 'ranks' to justifiably say that it is REALLY necessary.
Just please understand why there is concern.
PS. Of course I would make Alex and Jonis and all member kids Veterans.... Who needs a rule for that
hehe
Out of 3+ hours of meetings, only one thing is a concern.... Thats it? That is FANFLIPPINGTASTIC!!!!
How is that not kewl?
hehePleeeeaaaasssseeee, don't look at others debating a decision you made as a flame, or intruding, or as an order.
A suggestion or a debate, is NOT an order.
Noone is mad or bossing folks around, the opposite is actually true.
Folks are trying to look out for your rights, my rights, all members rights.....
Shouldn't that actually make you feel more secure, instead of angry or upset?
Anytime a postion (rank) is made, and it 'could possibly' be abused very very easily...... people SHOULD have a little concern about it. (more then a little
) I am quite positive if no one was concerned at all, we will have a game one day that just screams "how did we go so wrong and neglect these people!?!?" and they would be so un-SSX/family like that they would be unrecognizable to the rest of us.
Much thought is necessary in creating extra 'ranks' to justifiably say that it is REALLY necessary.
Just please understand why there is concern.
PS. Of course I would make Alex and Jonis and all member kids Veterans.... Who needs a rule for that
hehe-
Magdalena
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I wasn't trying to start a fight over this, quite the contrary... thus why I pointed out alex is only 8.
BD has a habit of making posts that come out like fighting words... not just with our group but all over the board. Things like posting there's already a problem without knowing the full situation.
As long as he keeps posting like that with our group, I will keep calling him on it until hopefully the stick is removed from his butt at least with our group.
Keeping things light even when discussing serious matters is how this group keeps from having nearly as many problems and how we had a three hour discussion on this without one single fight, which is pretty amazing in my book.
I'll keep emphasizing the stick isn't needed here until hopefully he gets it.
I appreciate the concern, the first post is fine... it was the reply to lili I took issue with, not the general concern about the veteran status. I also realize though that he didn't realize where she was coming from about alex like I did and the rest of the Mannoroth group does, which is why I took time to point that out. My only request is for him to realize in a group he's not around all the time there are things and people he may not understand as well on a forum, not being around them all the time. Take that into consideration before posting something like 'if you have people who consider being an SSX Member a demotion than you already have a problem there.'
If I hadn't said something I'm sure we'd have others chime in worse with the assumption "everyone knows alex is only 8" and asking why would he say something like that about an 8 year old? You I'm sure can imagine some of the responses and the direction this would have taken had that been the case.
Sorry if this comes out wrong, on my way to work and don't have time to put my usual thought into my post... sorry if yesterday's came out wrong for the same reason... as my other post states my hours have changed so I'm not having as much time to put into things right now, trying to keep the peace though.
BD has a habit of making posts that come out like fighting words... not just with our group but all over the board. Things like posting there's already a problem without knowing the full situation.
As long as he keeps posting like that with our group, I will keep calling him on it until hopefully the stick is removed from his butt at least with our group.
Keeping things light even when discussing serious matters is how this group keeps from having nearly as many problems and how we had a three hour discussion on this without one single fight, which is pretty amazing in my book.
I'll keep emphasizing the stick isn't needed here until hopefully he gets it.
I appreciate the concern, the first post is fine... it was the reply to lili I took issue with, not the general concern about the veteran status. I also realize though that he didn't realize where she was coming from about alex like I did and the rest of the Mannoroth group does, which is why I took time to point that out. My only request is for him to realize in a group he's not around all the time there are things and people he may not understand as well on a forum, not being around them all the time. Take that into consideration before posting something like 'if you have people who consider being an SSX Member a demotion than you already have a problem there.'
If I hadn't said something I'm sure we'd have others chime in worse with the assumption "everyone knows alex is only 8" and asking why would he say something like that about an 8 year old? You I'm sure can imagine some of the responses and the direction this would have taken had that been the case.
Sorry if this comes out wrong, on my way to work and don't have time to put my usual thought into my post... sorry if yesterday's came out wrong for the same reason... as my other post states my hours have changed so I'm not having as much time to put into things right now, trying to keep the peace though.
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Inquisitor
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We're used to dealing with teens and 20 somethings.
And we have had teens and 20 somethings "have a problem" with "demotion" which has without fail, caused everyone else probelms. So, take what you said and apply it to a teen or a 20something and at least take a minute to think why we might raise an eyebrow.
We have to operate on assumptions. Alot of times our assumptions are good, based on long experience and hundres/thousands of online friends and online idiots.
This whole 8 year old thing is a paradigm shift.
And we have had teens and 20 somethings "have a problem" with "demotion" which has without fail, caused everyone else probelms. So, take what you said and apply it to a teen or a 20something and at least take a minute to think why we might raise an eyebrow.
We have to operate on assumptions. Alot of times our assumptions are good, based on long experience and hundres/thousands of online friends and online idiots.
This whole 8 year old thing is a paradigm shift.
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Padishar
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You didn't start a fight.Magdalena wrote:I wasn't trying to start a fight over this, quite the contrary...
There is concern, as there always is when it comes to 'ranks'.
Opinions and concern are just that, we all have them and have the right to express them, does not mean we are 'fighting' or even upset at all.
Relax
You been doing great. -
Trixster
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Just a fyi we did talk about doing this, when we had the meeting I was playing facilitator in the meating.Fosters wrote:i agree with black dove in most respects the verteran position is lame duck and really serves no purpose but to incite jealousy and competition. on the other hand i think that it can be used efectively to show when an officer is on their alt. if all the alts of the officers are the only veterans than all the members will always know when an officer is on even if the character the officer is currently on is not their "officer character"
just a thought
During the meating we use the past dissuction posts on the topic and talked about each of them and this is an idea that was brought up. it was a very long meeating on one topic as you may have heard. tried to make sure that if someone was not there for the meeting but had an idea from the forums it was brought up. due to some of the reasons given though out this posting we made a the disstions above.
Currently playing BF2142 as Starbuck989
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?""
Quote by Will Rogers
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?""
Quote by Will Rogers
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Trixster
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I belive in the furture when we post results of a meating that they should be locked thus we do not start more debate on a topic that was dissuced in the forums and in the meeting.
just my 2 cents.
just my 2 cents.
Currently playing BF2142 as Starbuck989
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?""
Quote by Will Rogers
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?""
Quote by Will Rogers
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Padishar
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Right off the bat, I didn't say anything to Mel's summation of the meeting because I knew what she meant and I also knew how thorough you guys are. That mean everyone else does? Um, no. If KJ or I had been at the meeting you would have been 'forwarned', since this topic will come up again...... it always does. hehe
As already stated things like this have been ABUSED BEFORE, so it is going to set off some red flags in the SSX. That mean you can't do it? of course you can. Just have to be really really careful. You are so no worries and thank you for letting more people know you are being careful
Understand this isn't a WOW thing, its something that touches us all. You are setting precidence for other games to use ranks and you WILL be used as an example.
No pressure hehe
All SSX members should be concerned anytime something is put into play that could jeopardize our 'equality' and I will expect you to take your part in the future when other games make that leap as well
BTW in response to Trix, a new thread would have just been opened discussing the whole rank/veteran thing. Its a SSX thing not a WoW thing. Almost dissapointed more mods didn't show up concerned.... hehe
Also, the only thing I have seen before the meeting on 'veterans' was a suggestion by Req to make officer alts veterans and another stating we shouldn't make certain members vets as it will cause jealousy. Nothing was stated about the decision to make veterans "a recognition position of a person's contributions to the community as a whole".
Or there would have been more debate here on the forums before the meeting even started.
PS. Alex and the kids being a side point, as I would just make them vet's anywho hehe. Who needs a rule for that?
As already stated things like this have been ABUSED BEFORE, so it is going to set off some red flags in the SSX. That mean you can't do it? of course you can. Just have to be really really careful. You are so no worries and thank you for letting more people know you are being careful
Understand this isn't a WOW thing, its something that touches us all. You are setting precidence for other games to use ranks and you WILL be used as an example.
No pressure
heheAll SSX members should be concerned anytime something is put into play that could jeopardize our 'equality' and I will expect you to take your part in the future when other games make that leap as well
BTW in response to Trix, a new thread would have just been opened discussing the whole rank/veteran thing. Its a SSX thing not a WoW thing. Almost dissapointed more mods didn't show up concerned.... hehe
Also, the only thing I have seen before the meeting on 'veterans' was a suggestion by Req to make officer alts veterans and another stating we shouldn't make certain members vets as it will cause jealousy. Nothing was stated about the decision to make veterans "a recognition position of a person's contributions to the community as a whole".
Or there would have been more debate here on the forums before the meeting even started.
PS. Alex and the kids being a side point, as I would just make them vet's anywho hehe. Who needs a rule for that?
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QuantumDelta
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:51 pm
- Location: Bristol, England.
No offence but you shouldn't be so condescending to your children.
I've had Group members as young as eight (ok, six is kinda a stretch, but seriously, I should think it wouldn't be a problem, if they are as much mentally unable to understand such a concept, they would probably forget the actual rank existed after a week or so anyway), and if you actually sit down and take the time to explain things to them, they normally understand and are happy anyway, more happy, infact, because you actually included them into the forefront of your debates and conversation in a non-patronising fashion.
If you coin it as a demotion YOU have a problem, not the children, and that problem then reflects onto them, they pick up on it and take it into themselves as 'correct that it is a problem that the rank being removed is a demotion'. -> You breed the problem into them, they may be young but the concept of ranking-infrastructure is something merely instilled via society and you as a Parent, can easily dilute and enlighten.
I'm a little late in but just to give you some insight on someone who deals with peoples kids every day, big and small, and has done for years.
They're young, not stupid.
Concepts like this are far from beyond the grasp of an eight year old.
I'm not telling, nor asking, you to remove the rank, simply telling you not to treat your children like they're incapable of understanding.
I had that for years until my parents finally realised I was actually just as bright as they were, and it is extremely frustrating when someone is talking down to you and you know better.
-> That'll be later down the line though.
Just a heads up, Experience is not always greater than Knowledge or Intellect (The ability to take on new Knowledge).
/Finishes his "Another Path for Parenting" thing.
/Runs before he gets linched.
I've had Group members as young as eight (ok, six is kinda a stretch, but seriously, I should think it wouldn't be a problem, if they are as much mentally unable to understand such a concept, they would probably forget the actual rank existed after a week or so anyway), and if you actually sit down and take the time to explain things to them, they normally understand and are happy anyway, more happy, infact, because you actually included them into the forefront of your debates and conversation in a non-patronising fashion.
If you coin it as a demotion YOU have a problem, not the children, and that problem then reflects onto them, they pick up on it and take it into themselves as 'correct that it is a problem that the rank being removed is a demotion'. -> You breed the problem into them, they may be young but the concept of ranking-infrastructure is something merely instilled via society and you as a Parent, can easily dilute and enlighten.
I'm a little late in but just to give you some insight on someone who deals with peoples kids every day, big and small, and has done for years.
They're young, not stupid.
Concepts like this are far from beyond the grasp of an eight year old.
I'm not telling, nor asking, you to remove the rank, simply telling you not to treat your children like they're incapable of understanding.
I had that for years until my parents finally realised I was actually just as bright as they were, and it is extremely frustrating when someone is talking down to you and you know better.
-> That'll be later down the line though.
Just a heads up, Experience is not always greater than Knowledge or Intellect (The ability to take on new Knowledge).
/Finishes his "Another Path for Parenting" thing.
/Runs before he gets linched.
"Then, to hide their frailty, they hurt those who are kind.
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."
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Messiah
- Posts: 797
- Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:44 pm
- Yahoo Messenger: beanedaddy
Before anyone replies, I would like to remind everyone that lynching is expressly againt the values of the SSX.QuantumDelta wrote: /Runs before he gets linched.
This may not be the best place/time to posit a theory of child rearing, but in replying lets try to see what QD essentially is saying. I think it might be as simple as:
equality is a value regardless of age - kids deserve more credit than we give them.
I thank, in advance, any respondents for their measured replies.