Moderators

Magdalena · Post by **Magdalena** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:48 pm

Well, I tried posting this in the members section because I believe it really affects more than just the Mannoroth WoW group, but I do not have permissions to post in that forum so I'm posting it here hoping someone will see it.

All involved - please do not start a war on this forum or attitudes towards one another, that will serve no purpose.

This posting is in regards to how the "bored at work" posting was handled.

Let me first state, I see both sides on this, I'm guessing from the comments that these forums are hosted on a bandwidth limited site. That being the case, chitter chatter could be a problem. However I also notice the fact of what this group is seeing, it was something that definitely could have been handled better. Several were already asking if it were really a problem... we're a very pick on each other light hearted group, so I can also see how some of the postings could have been taken that way.

The main problem here I see is a very serious lack of communication. The thread was just locked after people asked about it. Understandably this upset those involved which is where I started getting messages.

I seriously doubt this one thread was hurting anything in too big of a way for someone to explain the problem with it and/or ask a Mannoroth moderator to talk to the group about it. There was nothing truely harmful, the most damage was bandwidth, in which case the post could be deleted after being handled properly. Hurt feelings and misunderstandings could have been avoided.

Can we please try to handle small stuff in a better manner? Stupid things like this should not be starting up dividers IMO.

Also, if bandwidth is an issue, the question has been brought up again on whether we should move forums back to our website with a redirector from here or something? This is something we can do if it needs to be done, just tell us. (Not trying to start something here, we just need to know if we're a problem.)

Magdalena

BlackDove · Post by **BlackDove** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:02 am

You create a post then you move it to members. That's how you start threads in the members forum.

Magdalena · Post by **Magdalena** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:14 am

Thank you. Learned something new today.

Just trying to handle best way I knew how. Hope it came out all right and makes sense...

Post by **Inquisitor** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:26 am

Because we don't let everyone else do it. It's not like we make a secret about what is acceptable and what is not on these forums. That's the whole point of not having any "real" hidden forums and making sure each group can see the others. Transparency. I let it slide with the subtle hint because you guys seem to be fragile when it comes to touching your posts, borne out by the fact that the closure of a completely pointless post "upset" someone.

For those who are "upset": For crying out loud, LOOK at the other forums. LOOK what happens when other people do that.

It's not the place. If you are bored, research quests, start a new conversation in General about an upcoming game. Have a conversation that has some substance. It's not a whole lot to ask. or at least let the inanity die after a short spurt. It's 50 posts of nothing substative.

Don't spam inane posts. It has never been "ok."

-edit-
We do not have a bandwidth limit, that was my subtle crack to find a point to the conversation.

Stracius · Post by **Stracius** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:19 am

I'd like to think that the thread lock was a bigger hint to anyone who missed the many smaller ones

. Rather doubt there was any intention to give affront to anyone who ended up irritated about it.

Just keep it to a minimum is all anyone can ask. The spammage, that is.

Magdalena · Post by **Magdalena** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:24 am

From what I've gathered from everyone they're not 'upset' at the closure of the post itself but how it was done. To me its just something I saw that could have been handled a little better. It's not allowed, that's fine... don't really care personally, I can look at setting something up on the other site for that since most can't get into the other stuff mentioned to do, and they want a way to be able to chat back and forth during the day.
Understand though that they didn't intend harm by it, annoying maybe to some but seriously weren't hurting anyone. Have seen it done the same in other groups myself, which is possibly part cause of the separation between the different groups of gamers. Have noticed a lot more that it is not only our group that feels the separation. Trying to give constructive thoughts to relieve some of that... one way is not to fight over small stupid stuff, trying to find a better way to handle before shutting down. I can't remember who said it, but someone on here made mention once about backing people into a corner and giving them no out, they're going to lash out, it's just part of the way people act. They were asking about it genuinely when this happened in this case. They had even posted apologies afterwards and stopped.
I personally wasn't involved in the thread, which is why I say they. Most companies have security locked down pretty tight though, and being in IT I know why and have to explain these things to users who are upset they can't chat with thier kids etc. on a daily basis.

To those involved in the posting, this kind of thread gives moderators a lot more work for no reason which is why I think it was locked and why such threads are frowned upon. They have a responsibility to check through every post to ensure nothing inappropriate gets through on the site, with a group this size that is tough enough without having needless chit-chat.

Post by **Inquisitor** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:50 am

Good lord, setting "something up" on the other site might as well be the death knell for staying here. If you do that, we might as well part company now, figure out all the quasi-legal stuff with the name and just be done with it. You'll use here less and less, and finally wonder why you even need us.

Which I am sure is exactly what some people are saying now.

It's a good question. Why do you need us? Why stay if we're so overbearing and alienating?

You have to want to stay, decide to stay, and then actually choose to stay. Only you and the other US WoW players can make the decision. Is having the ability to make 2 pages of "gee look, I can quote quotes" really that important?

Post by **M.Steiner** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:44 am

Well i don't see why i should have to explain again why i chose to lock that thread but oh well;

That thread had already been left open for 4 days which gave you all more than enough time to stop the spamming. Quiz had hinted twice to stop, Stracius had also pointed out that there are facilities such as IRC for stuff like that rather than spamming the forums with it. People still continued to post on the thread so i decided to lock it as i felt it had gone on long enough. I posted and explained why threads like that aren't allowed before it was locked as well. How would you have liked it to be handled? Left it open even longer? It had already reached 50 posts.

Just looking over the US wow groups forum, the "thread for bored people at work" actually has the same amount of replys to it as your groups raiding schedule sticky does and they are both the biggest threads on your entire forum. Did that alone not strike any of you that the spamming had already gone a little too far? -_-

And as Quiz has already said above, you just have to look through the other forums or even the archives to see other spam threads/posts that have either been locked or moved. Why should your group be any different? Do you really need to have a seperate forum away from the SSX servers just so's you're able to spam and do as you like rather than go by the same few rules as the rest of us do?

Stracius · Post by **Stracius** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:28 am

How about a compromise. The people bored at work and are unable to use any type of chat clients whatsoever wanting to chat with other guild members, and ppl not wanting useless spam. I liked one of Quiz's earlier suggestions: chat about relevant stuff. Raid tips, class discussions, new games, old games, ways to pass time at work without being caught. Hell, lots of gaming stuff out there to pick and choose from.

And doesn't always have to be about games either. Just so long as the topic isn't completely out there (politics, religion, taxes, etc.), and has some moderate interest to gamers such as ourselves

. There are posts like that now and then and I've yet to see any complaints about them. As long as they don't go overboard.

As for how it was handled. Hints were given (polite or not), and ignored. You're right, the author of the thread did apologize on the very last post prior to lock, but it was otherwise continuing unabated. I'm curious, and go along with MS when he asked, "How would you have liked it to be handled?"

I thought it appropriate given the circumstances. Explanations were given beforehand. Requests were made, and failing that the thread was finally locked. If you've alternate suggestions, then by all means please share them. That's what this forum is here for

undrin · Post by **undrin** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:45 pm

Perhaps she was not clear enough. The using of our forums would not be a substitute for SSX. It would be just like anyone of us going to another bored not related to Gaming and chatting it up. There are plenty of boards out there that allow for that type of discussion and are more suited for it. SSX-MS has already explained the reasoning behind that type of thread not being allowed and that is great, not a problem. IMO it should not effect nor should it matter if we use a board not of this nature to chat amongst our friends. I use many boards on the internet and am still a part of SSX so the argument that we would use this forum less and less is not logical to me. I hope everyone understands that intent is just to use what many of us have paid for, in a sophomoric manner and use the SSX forums for what they were intended.

So in other words lets chill out and take a deep breath. I have and I needed to in the begining of this. Thanks for listening hope this helps.

Post by **Messiah** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:25 pm

Most of us are members of different forums and post in various places often. Being SSX in no way precludes you from going where you like on the net. There are plenty of sites where you can spam til your heart is content, and no one will say a word - this just isn't one of those sites. All we expect is that when you are representing the SSX, you do so in accordance with the values we hold, most notably accountability and maturity.

Magdalena has noted a goal of better communication. She is right on target in her observation. However, in order to better communicate, those involved need to have open avenues and be available. We have members worldwide, and there are almost always moderators on the IRC channel. IM (which can be a pain in the rear, I know) is a great way to communicate (if you don't want to be disturbed, set your status to invisible). Even e-mail can be faster than conducting a conversation on the forums. These avenues work wonderfully if people use them and make themselves available through them.

If you are SSX, if this place is your home, and if our values are those that you want to exercise in your online relationships, then moving forums or creating a second set of forums is not an option. This place is the SSX. Our community lives and happens here. It is open to all of us to see what happens in every division. We are all responsible to and for each other.

Post by **Inquisitor** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:34 pm

My confusion lies in what "discussion between friends" we've insisted that you not conduct.

Look at general.

We have esd's baby (admittedly that was a while ago), Hawk's pregnancy (grats little lady), Messiah's beer run to the UK, my forthcoming trip out west, an obit for the actor who played G'Kar, a post about the power of the atom, and even a bored at work thread ( http://www.shatteredstar.org/ssx/forums ... php?t=2902 ). None of those topics are directly related to games (excpet mine, maybe, since I am going out west to go to a game developer convention). There is even a fair amount of sophomoric behavior. It doesn't take MUCH substance to be appropriate.

esd · Post by **esd** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:42 pm

Yup, the game sections are for game discussion. If you can show me how "Bored at work" is actually directly WoW related I may agree with the right to "spam" there, but it's not. Spam is for General, but it needs to be at least slightly intelligent spam (therefore, by definition, not spam!).

General's also a great way to break the bubble of one's own group, and meet the rest of the SSX.

undrin · Post by **undrin** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:44 pm

I was refering to the bored at work thread's sophmoric nature, basically that thread really had no place on these forums thats all. I never intended this to get to be so much of a problem. Basically we just need to find a place to do that where it does not interfear with the SSX forums. the ones that were invouvled in this thread for the most part are not allowed to use any form of IM/IRC style programs that allow for more than two people to talk at once at work(Some companies make no sense in my mind), they still let us use forums. It is just going somewhere else for something different. It is not leaving SSX. I have been posting on this forum for over a year now as well as many others. So I never intended to leave ya'll it has been a blast.

We will just talk about it and figure something out that does not interfear with our Guild Forums.

P.S. I want to know how that Gaming Conference goes!!! Please post about it after you get back.

Magdalena · Post by **Magdalena** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:39 am

I was actually thinking more along the lines of organizing something like the shoutbox already there better. Need to set permissions on it to require registration and auto-clean. Don't care if other SSX'ers want to use it too. I think everyone (except me, I'll work a way around that eventually) has access to that and was able to use it from work. I just haven't had time since I just got assigned to a project where a network was basically thrown up with no real design, structure, or much that makes sense but is already up and with the company using it. Having to work at restructuring to a large extent and being the sole desktop support person at the same time. As most know, I have a tough time right now even finding time to play the game much anymore. I try to keep up with what's going on through the forums as much as I can. I'm checking my PMs here pretty regularly and can give my e-mail address to anyone that wants it, though I won't post it publicly on any board system as I like to know who has it. IM and ICQ however are pretty much out of the question for me. They're against security regulations at work and by the time I get home I'm lucky if I can get online at all. I'm usually pretty good about answering e-mail though unless I'm stuck in the server room all day like today.

I'm aware I'm guilty of communication errors too, but its something I'm trying to work on and the reasoning for my posting. Obviously I failed miserably to some, sorry I'm trying. Thank you Messiah for seeing the goal of better communication. That is the point I was trying to get across, I wasn't trying to open discussion on the spam rule or anything else, guessing I suck pretty badly at this.

The two ways I personally could see handling situations like this first trying to explain up front with them, and if that doesn't work try to contact a person that knows them, see if its clearer to them and if they can talk to the offender(s). Let someone closer be the one to lock the thread if that needs to happen. In this case I could've locked it had I realized the problem and would have with a note that I did it. Would have had the three people calling my phone joking with why the heck did you close the most important thread I ever posted, I would've told them and they would've said something along the lines of gutka's apology post, story over very simply.

At the very least the closer person could give insight on the person at hand, know their quirks and who they are, they might see where they'd misunderstand you and where you'd misunderstand them. Could've told you they probably thought the hint was a joke and could've told you they didn't understand the why, etc.

If unwilling to take time for one another a group of this size across so many different areas and games etc. will always have issues.

If we were to be looking for hints, right now I'd be seeing a strong hint that our thoughts and suggestions aren't welcome here by most. I'm choosing not to though because that isn't what was said. Instead what I do see is that the miscommunication has gotten even worse than I thought and really is something that needs to be worked on. Maybe you're right and it's too late to fix, I guess only time will tell. I'm not one to give up over stupid stuff though that should've never really been an 'issue'.

Stracius · Post by **Stracius** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:45 am

Soo, sounds like: It would be a good idea to leave most of the forum work to the particular mods in charge of said forum. Sounds like a good idea. We just need to work out a good way to contact you to let you know if there are any concerns, or to bring something to your attention. As you said you check your PMs regularly, that could suffice.

Everything except the big stuff, and then sometimes not depending on the situation? As for contacting someone that better knows anyone we were talking to. Yeah, being too lazy. At least I was. Figured it wasn't really that important a thread to be buggered to do some work

.

Anyway, just my interpretation of what you're suggesting. This can easily be applied to all the divisions. I think it's a good idea.

Post by **M.Steiner** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:50 am

If it was a problem with a specific person then i would agree that speaking to another person in their group about it and/or leaving it up to them to sort out would have been a better option, like we discussed in the previous mod meeting, but it wasn't, it was just spam from several people simple as that.

Maybe i misunderstood what you were meaning, if so then i apologise, but I don't agree with leaving every single thread or post that needs moderating in some shape or form down to just the people that play that game and are moderators of that particular forum. Its hard to explain what i'm thinking but imo it would be stuff like that that would start to create any type of dividers between groups that were mentioned earlier. Thats just gonna start to isolate each little group even more...If a global mod or an admin can't go in to another forum and lock a spam thread without all hell breaking loose afterwards theres a problem somewhere.
This reminds me of summin else come to think of it, the "our group will deal with this, your not part of this group so its got nothing to do with blah blah" kinda attitude. Mebbe some people know what i'm on about there. This attitude already exists in the US group to some degree, i quote "when we didn't ask for opinions then keep it shut", by starting something like this and sticking each little group even closer together like that ur just gonna add to that unwanted attitude...
I actually don't enjoy going in to the US forum and i've stopped doing so as much cos i usually get my head bitten off when i do any moderating in there, mebbe a little exaggerated there but i have felt like an outsider going in there sometimes and i shouldn't... We're all SSX here, we shouldn't have to pussy-foot around one another. It shouldn't matter who moderates in what forum, what game their from, we shouldn't need to contact someone that plays that game to get them to come and sort something that needs moderating. :|

Sry if thats a little open & blunt, i'm just being honest with the way i feel.

[Edit - Edited a couple of times to try word my post better ;o]

Padishar · Post by **Padishar** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:34 pm

Interesting week we are having I see

Missed some of this thanks to leasurely setting up my new gaming PC the past few days and getting my network back on the internet.

Better communication is always a good idea and thank you for bringing that up Magdalena

However, IMHO I do not believe this incident is a good reference of failed communication

i see two threads here. One suggesting better communication, which is always good. The second is a deeper concern that keeps happening for some reason. No matter how much is explained or new communcation doors that are opened, there is an underlined problem that needs to be addressed.
A continuing misconception of our SSX family is still happening on all sides/fronts. Don't understand because its too fague a statement?
I will use this recent incident as an example to paint a picture:

Padishar · Post by **Padishar** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:34 pm

::Our narrator for this story will by done by penniless, hopefully not sober, slippery when wet Padishar::

Spamming occurs....
Former precedence - Normal response like "Spamming is not allowed on the forums" type of statement is given and the thread is locked by a local moderator. If the local moderator hasn't locked it with in a reasonable amount of time a global mod steps in and locks it. Nuff said... we don't allow spamming. If someone doesnt understand why?
PM is available or better yet a thread labeled "Why don't we allow spamming?" can be started by anyone.

A kind gesture/hint was made by Quis to stop spamming but no action by him was taken... Easily giving those spamming a chance to actually..... well..... stop on their own accord. Nothing happened and the spamming continued... for 3 days. A polite and direct request was finally made to stop and only ONE person actually asked anything about why should they stop.

undrin wrote:Well it looks like out thread has been hijacked!

So it looks like you want us to not use the forums for silly fun threads? I am not able to use IRC because I can't just let it sit open on my computer. Working for a software company makes it difficult to do that. I didnt realize using the forums for this was a probelm. Please explain or at least be up front if it is. None of use would want to cause any trouble with band width or anything.

4 people still went on to spam.

A global mod finally stepped in (MS) and not only generously explained, but did what was IMHO supposed to be done (days before) with spamming from the start and locked the thread.

SSX-MS wrote:Okay i believe this thread has gone on long enough already, Quiz has already kindly asked you guys to stop.

This forum is here for World of Warcraft discussions, not to be used as a general realtime chatroom whilst you're "bored at work" like this thread has been used for, this is just a 50 post thread full of spam basically.
If you wanna have realtime chats like this again please use IRC like the rest of us do, or MSN, Yahoo, even PM if you have to, thats what they're there for. If you're unable to use any IM facilities whilst you're at work theres nothing we can do about that, just don't use the forums for spam like this in the future please.

This is a gaming forum not an instant messenger service.

If more explanation needed to be done on this, then once again PM someone or start a topic on it.

::And so ends our story of love lost and feelings found::

Padishar · Post by **Padishar** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:35 pm

So as I was saying we have misconceptions STILL

No one posted on the forums in an upset manner when asking the spamming to stop. Not only that, but much support and alternate suggestions were given. One person asks why they have to stop all the while the spamming continued.
An explanation IS given and the thread is locked (as it was supposed to be from the start).
And what happens?
Was a thread started asking for an explanation? Or time given for people to answer PMs?
No. instead we have instantaneously upset people.

And for what? No serious reason at all.

This keeps happening.
Why?
No one is purposely trying to hurt anyone or cause problems and still people are continually becoming upset.

It is starting to cause, on a broader front, people having to tippy toe around so as not to upset anyone who may take something the wrong way, when people are just doing their volunteered jobs for all of our benefit.
We have people frickn afraid to even post or moderate because of fear it will be taken the wrong way and their heads will be bitten off.
Or better yet, post after post of people being polite. And people will still be taken as somehow wronging those for speaking their minds and causing others to become instantly furious with them.

Is more communication somehow going to fix this dilemma?

::disclaimer:: I am merely concerned about this as it seems to keep happening. By no means am I directing at any individual nor am I in the slightest upset or meaning any of this to be in a negative tone. I want to help us all to be closer and stronger together.

Stracius · Post by **Stracius** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:15 pm

I hadn't thought about that MS. Mainly because I didn't have to deal with that stuff when it happened. Partially because there still a lot of stuff that occurred that I still don't know about, and another part because I had forgotten about it. Yes, things have been going that well around here from what I've seen.

So perhaps it's not the wisest course of action. Still, it's good that we can discuss ways to avoid problems in the future. Even if sometimes there is no outright or simple solution, and I'm beginning to get that feeling for this. Guess my best thought is to try not to get worked up about it and move on.

Maybe we should try and find out why actions such as this global moderating makes some people feel as if they're being divided? Or are they?

esd · Post by **esd** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:39 pm

Maybe we should try and find out why actions such as this global moderating makes some people feel as if they're being divided?

Unforunately I think this is inherant to any system involving multiple groups or games. We went with "Groups" rather than "Divisions" to try and show that we're not divided by game, but ultimately in a way we are.
(This, in my opinion, was one of the principle factors in "the downfall of the SSC". People had concerns about other divisions. The people in the other divisions said "You don't know! You're not in this division!" and a lot of bad feeling went about. It was more complicated than that, but you get the jist.)

How often do most SSX interact with people from outside their Group? Who do you consider to be "The SSX"? The people around you, naturally. Then someone you've practically never heard of comes along and locks a thread in your group. Intruder alert, attack the interloper, blahblahblah.

Is this the fault of having global moderators? No, and as we've seen, they're really a neccesity. I think it's down to the lack of inter-group communication and socialisation. There's not a whole lot that can be done about it, other than encourage people to get on the General forum, swing by IRC or even try out other group's games.

Post by **M.Steiner** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:06 pm

esd wrote:How often do most SSX interact with people from outside their Group? Who do you consider to be "The SSX"? The people around you, naturally. Then someone you've practically never heard of comes along and locks a thread in your group. Intruder alert, attack the interloper, blahblahblah.

Is this the fault of having global moderators? No, and as we've seen, they're really a neccesity. I think it's down to the lack of inter-group communication and socialisation. There's not a whole lot that can be done about it, other than encourage people to get on the General forum, swing by IRC or even try out other group's games.

Think you've hit the nail on the head there esd.

Kon · Post by **Kon** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:39 pm

I thought I had already replied to this. Guess not.

The locking of a spam topic should have never been an issue, even if there are underlying feelings of division. It is downright foolish to argue about such things. If you can't get on IRC at work, why don't you do your job for a change? If I was your boss I'd hit you with a big stick every time I saw you not working. Then I'd fire you, and give myself a raise.

Whoa, little BD moment there...

Anyway, if you feel like the SSX begins and ends with Mannoroth, you're sadly mistaken. What is the SSX, you ask? First of all, read the About SSX and Why SSX? sticky threads in every forum. The SSX has groups in Conquer Online, Guildwars, two groups in World of Warcraft (Mannoroth and Bladefist,) Dark Horizons: Lore (Quiz, Adrian, Killjoy, and esd are on the dev team,) Freespace, Neocron, Anarchy Online, Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War, and good old Dungeons & Dragons.

The SSX was founded on the idea of a community of friends that play not just one game, but many games together. If you want to learn more about the other people in the community, post in the General forum more often, and play some more games. I have played many games with the SSX in the past including FS2, FL, WC3, Lore, WoW, AO, NC, and DoW, and I believe that I am very active in the community. I encourage you to be too. If you want to, or don't like the idea, you can leave, because it's not going to change. Ever.

Gryphon · Post by **Gryphon** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:29 pm

Why is this still open?

The reasoning has been explained, and the rules outlined. People have given thier two cents, which has only exacerbated the problem. I think maybe locking the thread, and just getting on with things would be in everyones best interest.

FOr those that want to spam, there's places to do it, and yes, I'm as guilty as others, but hey, only when it's the time and place.