List of guilds for possible alliances

Bladesinger · Post by **Bladesinger** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:06 pm

Over the course of the past week or so I've played a lot with people from a couple guilds and/or have been approached by officers of guilds who are either cool with an alliance or are actively seeking one. I'm starting a list of them for us to see and possibly do a little passive reconaissance of.

Tattered Virtues -large group, good people, may have trouble getting a full run but more likely will have excess members available to fill in a group with us. Runs BWL regularly

Knights of Adun -was approached by one of their officers about an alliance. Not able to fill up a full raid group of their own and are looking for a decent group to partner with. Has MC and Onyxia experience. Their practices and demographic seem similar to ours. www.knightsofadun.com

With any luck our officers and theirs will be able to meet up and hash out the ins and outs of alliance if we want to go that route.

Magdalena · Post by **Magdalena** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:13 pm

Great work

Could you let me know in a pm or something who best to speak with in both of those?

Thanks,

Magdalena

Brandonheat · Post by **Brandonheat** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:06 pm

lili · Post by **lili** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:36 pm

A note on Knights of Adun. The main reason why they don't have enough people to fill a raid is that they boot a lot of their player a lot of time without reason or just showing up late to a raid a bit because of work and RL stuff. I don't know how they will do with an alliance guild. Steve's priest was booted without them ever giving a reason. Don't know if it was officer abuse or what.

sakuragi · Post by **sakuragi** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:29 pm

i also want to point out that mentality is moving to the new server and there are some that do not want to go...you guys might wanna pick some of the players up from there....they are good bunch of people that know what they are doing in mc and bwl...

requiemdreamer · Post by **requiemdreamer** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:33 pm

Going into an alliance we would all have to be in agreement that we are doing it our way or don't do it at all. That way we can control things the way we need to in order to avoid problems with the type of guild you are saying KoA is. With the website Trix and Mag are working on, we can handle looting the way we have always intended to, for MC and the like, and what our alliance guild does with their members is up to them. There is also a possibility that we might need to change the raiding schedule to accomodate for other players, keep in mind.

sakuragi · Post by **sakuragi** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:31 pm

yea the only thing bad about alliance guilds are that they like using the dkp system which i know everyone hates.....not many guilds will do the attendance based systems....anyways, i'll let u all know when i see more guilds needing alliances..

requiemdreamer · Post by **requiemdreamer** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:02 pm

Thanks for the help, Sakuragi. Much appreciated.

Magdalena · Post by **Magdalena** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:17 pm

That is one of the reasons we're looking to head an alliance and wanted to wait until site completion before we start an active search for an alliance group.

Since KoA contacted us we need to go ahead and talk with them about this, but they'd have to understand we're not interested in being brought in under another group.

For any alliance to work it has to be equally beneficial and convenient to both sides, and raid times and loot rules have to be agreeable to both sides. On top of that your players have to get along with each other.

I'm getting mixed messages on the KoA groups' members and leadership, so whether we'd all get along I don't think we'd know until we try.

As for the other details to be worked out:

Attendance distribution : How are the raid slots filled? This discussion goes down to each individual class group, and how well it works depends on the balance areas of both groups. If they're heavy where we're light and light in classes where we're heavy then it's pretty easy, but if we're both weak in the same areas and flooded in the same areas there's going to be a lot more give and take between the groups.

Loot distribution : This is one area that's going to be tough, I'm pretty sure we could agree to resetting tracking so both groups start at ground zero is likely the easiest way to handle this, however there is then the question as to what loot system to use... as sakuragi mentioned, our group has an extreme dislike for dkp systems, so much so we have 2 people who went out and learned to code for writing a web-based database application, and are currently creating the database and putting the site together and are close to the end of this. Some groups are equally set on using DKP and swear by it, others use it because they don't know another way and its there...

Raid Times: The groups have to have raid times that will work together, moving one or the other's raid times is an unlikely scenario.

Leadership: How will the groups work to coordinate leadership over the raid, there are an endless number of ways to decide to do this, but while most other discussions determine whether the alliance can even be started, this has more of an impact on the longevity of an alliance... if done in a way to where one group feels slighted by the other, it is unlikely the alliance will last long enough to accomplish much.

The truth is these are all questions we don't have answers to as far as I know yet, and some of the things I wanted to open up discussion with their officers about.

Its too early to know which way any of this will go, and if for some reason it doesn't work out, there will be another group out there somewhere that it can work out with...

I'm going by what the majority have shared in meetings etc whenever these topics have come up...
if these opinions have changed, I haven't heard anything about it yet.

Bladesinger · Post by **Bladesinger** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:29 pm

What I got from talking with tenbatsu was their looking to do a reasonably fair loot sharing deal. What would happen is each guild would have a master looter who would roll against the other looters for rights to the item. The guild who won the roll would then decide amongst itself how the loot would be distributed.

I agree that we need to be very clear and strong in letting any potential allies that we're not in this to be subsumed into a larger group. All partnerships are 100% equal or we're not going to be a part of it.

Padishar · Post by **Padishar** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:44 pm

SSX-Bladesinger wrote:What I got from talking with tenbatsu was their looking to do a reasonably fair loot sharing deal. What would happen is each guild would have a master looter who would roll against the other looters for rights to the item. The guild who won the roll would then decide amongst itself how the loot would be distributed.

I agree that we need to be very clear and strong in letting any potential allies that we're not in this to be subsumed into a larger group. All partnerships are 100% equal or we're not going to be a part of it.

That is a really sliiiiick idea and quite fair.
Seems like that would make it insanely easier to manage.

Padishar · Post by **Padishar** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:49 pm

Wait on second thought.....

Guess that would only be fair if we have a close amount of people. Otherwise if there is like 35 of us and only a couple of them.....

Would they still get a 50% chance to the loot? Or would they then have to go by our looting system?

Hmm.....

sakuragi · Post by **sakuragi** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:03 pm

SSX-Bladesinger wrote:What I got from talking with tenbatsu was their looking to do a reasonably fair loot sharing deal. What would happen is each guild would have a master looter who would roll against the other looters for rights to the item. The guild who won the roll would then decide amongst itself how the loot would be distributed.

only problem with that idea is this....what if their master looter is constantly winning??? for example out of 10 epics, they won 7 of them??? how unfair would that be?? should use a type of system to keep track of who gets what ...like the attendence system or something....thus everyone in that particular class can roll on it.....otherwise, if their master looter wins the roll 7 out of 10, then ssx would be on the losing end....granted if we roll and the smallest number gets it, i think ssx will win that...we just need jerimie to roll and be our master looter...then it's a win win situation....

well, just my 2 cents....and something to think about..

Bladesinger · Post by **Bladesinger** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:05 pm

I like the idea of master looters doing /roll for items regardless of proportions. Chances are good anyway that we'll have near 50/50 on 40 man raids since we normally pull 20 people for our own. Even if the proportions are skewed it seems to me to be the least complicated and potentially flammable method. Given enough runs the numbers will average out.

Aoiren · Post by **Aoiren** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:56 pm

If there is a concern about not getting an equal portion of drops then just alternate between the guild master looters. SSX gets the first drop then the other guild gets the next. We could also do a quick roll off before we start the run the first time with that guild to see which guild looter gets the first epic.

When we take down a boss and two epics drop then the guild whose turn is next gets first dibs and the other guild gets the remainder. Or perhaps then master looters roll off to see who gets first dibs on the epic drops.

Once the run is complete then the order of looting is continued for the next run so that the guild who got the last epic drop gets moved back in the que behind the other guild.

requiemdreamer · Post by **requiemdreamer** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:05 pm

A couple of things... If we were to do a roll, it's a random roll, so I don't see there being a need to change something to help out people who continually get bad rolls other than something like what we have for our % system (i.e. after 8 roll loses you get the next item defaulted to you). It's a random roll and sometimes you just have bad luck.

Altogether, though, I don't like the idea of the master looter from each guild. I think it fails to promote attendance or reward staying for the duration of the raid. For trash drops I would say just split them down the middle, but rare items could become a problem. Also, it completely tosses away the use of what Jack and Mel have been diligently working on for the last several weeks. I think that if we could speak with their guild master about how we do it, they would agree that it is more than fair, and to be able to show them the working website we will have for recording and keeping track of loot will help a lot more.

And as Padishar said, there is the possibility that the raid won't be evenly distributed. With both of our guild being the same size, it won't be too much of a concern right now, but if we are expanding and hoping to do guild-only MC and BWL runs then we might start having issues.

Brandonheat · Post by **Brandonheat** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:14 am

how about this, take on the Master loot rolls

We roll out of the number of people, then add the extra people on to our rolls.

For example.

MC raid 40man

25 SSX
15 ***

Both /roll 40

SSX rolls an 17
*** rolls an 20

Since we have an 10 more guys then them, our roll gets bumped up an extra 10 giving us an 27, therefore us winning the item.

ZG 20

Both would /roll 20

... etc.

Magdalena · Post by **Magdalena** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:51 am

Discussion will be held on this at Saturday's guild meeting, please try to make it this week... we've had several of our officers meet with them tonight and will have info to share and talk over...

Magdalena · Post by **Magdalena** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:47 am

Part of what to discuss saturday, because I'm a little confused from some of the discussion tonight... evidentally there were some internal issues within their guild that might become an alliance issue come raid time... however its confusing because I don't know the exact situations and problems and the main person I'm hearing this from is going from experience of sakuragi who suggested them for a possible alliance earlier this month in the post below?

I think we definitely need to find out exactly what issues there have been, and bring this knowledge to their officers to discuss how we can prevent these things from being brought into our alliance raids and if we can, and only if we can, give it a try.

sakuragi wrote:i think it's a good idea....i also wanna point out some guilds that are looking for more participates....aka knights of adun.....they just can't seem to get 40 man for mc but they have close to 20+ at raid time....it's one that i think u guys mite want to considered...the gm of the guild is actually about 25yrs old.....and most of their players are casual players...for some reason, they 100+ lvl 60s but can't get more then 20-30 to a raid......

just a suggestion....

sakuragi · Post by **sakuragi** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:42 pm

don't get me wrong, they are a bunch of mature okay guys....they just have a habit of kicking people out of the raid/guild then discussing it later....that's the only concern i would see right now.....yea they go by the dkp system, but u guys already worked out how the looting is going to be done...shouldn't be much of a problem...

the only thing i stress is this...if u don't follow their directions, they will boot u out of the raid.....

requiemdreamer · Post by **requiemdreamer** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:30 pm

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, which hopefully we never will.

Magdalena · Post by **Magdalena** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:08 pm

Hopefully you're wrong on what they might do, however if you're not and they were to start kicking people like that, we will deal with it immediately. There will be no continuing the raid and discussing afterwards, it will be discussed on the spot. If something does go wrong, we will pick our group up and move on to something else.

If that were to happen, we'd truly lose nothing but a little bit of play time, which has happened often enough in pug groups, and we're all still here and doing no worse for wear. At that point, move on and keep going.

I'm pretty sure everyone here can agree none of us would tolerate our friends being treated badly or taking the fun out of what should be an exciting adventure for us all.

Also, judge each as an individual, if their personalities are cool and there's just 1-2 bad apples, doesn't mean the entire thing is a lost cause. Deal with the issues of those bad apples and get it straightened out. Just like you don't join a pug with the attitude that every one of them is a stupid idiot, you at least wait to see that they are or aren't and take action accordingly.

So, how do we deal with problems if they arise? If they've kicked someone or are displaying otherwise unacceptible behavior, PM an officer and let them know immediately. Officers, this should be dealt with as quickly and nicely as possible by first posting in officer channel when not in combat, and if necessary pulling officers of both guilds into a different vent channel.

I'm sometimes blind as a bat when it comes to chat scroll, however will be separating guild chat and PMs into a separate window (which hopefully won't disappear every 5 minutes once we're in there). If for some reason it doesn't seem like they saw your question or comment, then say over vent, "Officer#3, can I talk to you in another channel for a second?" They should pull you into the officer channel to find out what's going on.

I'm pretty sure we've already done this on all of the accounts, but as a reminder, officers make sure the account you raid with this weekend has officer status or gets it before the raid so if we have a new member with us, they can find one easily in the guild list.