Okay, there have been many questions regarding loot as of late and how to handle certain situations. Most of these have been discussed and decided on, but there has been one thing as of late that has been bothering me.
The thing is we have a guild in which a lot of people have several alts, and vary on which character they play on. Most of the time it's a matter of which they want to play at that time, but they tend to choose the area the raid is missing, which is great. This shows a genuine care for the group and fellow playmates which is at least to me the way it should be.
The care above also serves to baffle me slightly when the same person on thier alt takes an item that another person's main could really use. This isn't always the case, I and others I've seen have passed multiple times because we were on alts. I've even seen others pass while on their main because while an upgrade for them it was a bigger upgrade for the other person and would help the group. For the longest time, this wasn't spoken but it's the way just about everybody did without being asked to or told to, so there was no need to bring it up. However, on the last few runs I've started seeing some not following this tradition, whether intentional or just not thinking about it, either way it was still done and they put items on alts they're not always on over passing to a main that's almost always there and contributing. The loot system we have helps to a degree, but doesn't control it fully, especially in 20- runs where there is no system kept.
I don't think we should completely block the alts from rolling/winning, especially on smaller stuff that drops all the time, but perhaps point it out when someone does it and hope they're just overlooking and not doing so out of greed.
I do believe we should have tabs on each person's main toon so we can point it out and have each person declare which they consider to be their main toon.
For those that may not know me well enough, this is not for my main to get more stuff... my main toon lacks very little from the instances we're in right now, and I'm more than happy to pass to someone else's main if I'm on my alt, especially if it is better for the group as a whole.
Eventually it will get to where most items are defaulted to the alts when they come anyway, and I don't mind them being there, but don't find it fair or considerate of the group for someone like me to get my warrior geared up with the group and when it's not needed come in with my mage and take things away from others like Babydolly, Delord, Fireghoul, etc who are there on their mages every single week and use those characters like I use my warrior to help get us through more and more new things as a team, whereas during new encounters my mage will be sitting the sidelines while I tank with my warrior and that gear I took wouldn't be doing the group any good, it would be hurting us all.
You may all totally disagree with me on this, I'm not sure... it isn't something we've ever out and out discussed, so I'm bringing it here for talk to begin. I've let my thoughts and feelings known... these are mine alone, nobody else's... hope everyone else will feel free to share theirs on this as well.
Looting Rules Discussion
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Magdalena
- Posts: 571
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QuantumDelta
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:51 pm
- Location: Bristol, England.
On the topic as a whole I really quite agree with what I've seen, however I think some of it is also birth of ignorance to stats and game dynamics, I've seen players take *Inferior* Pieces of gear to what they currently had equipped, simply because they are purple and assumed better, over someone who could very genuinely get a significant improvement from their character via it.
The class restrictions that are run don't all make sense either, you seem to have a mishmash of influences in your organisation, in that some drops are administered purely by generics and other drops are administered purely by PvE Usage.
Running these two measurements in tandom is counter productive, as it will quickly leave your hybrids, your warriors(when they're not tanking) and your hunters significantly undergeared.
A hunter gains the exact ---- exact* same bonus as a rogue or a warrior (Yes all three classes) in a raiding configuration where the warrior is assumed to be not tanking for that engagement, stats from the core hound tooth, the exact same power and damage increase as a rogue.
Even Feral druids do - but that's somewhat counter intuitive if you are going to evaluate things based purely on PvE Progression.
Aurastone hammer, it may benefit Paladins slightly more than it does your average druid, however Paladins have a far superior instrument in the same instance: Azuresong mageblade - one of the best main hands in early raiding for anyone who can weild it and benefit from it's primary stats (shushrogues/hunters), but druids don't have much else available to them, they're regarded as a 2nd class citizen for this, and a 2nd class citizen for the other main (inferior) 1h they can wield in this instance (Sorcerous dagger) - which other classes apparently beat them out on.
Paladins in terms of armour are /more or less/ restricted to gear that will severely limit them in actualising their full healing potential in an instance.
Warriors are freely allowed the DPS 2h plate and tanking gear, but when it comes to their most effective source of damage (dual wield fury) they're denied their best weapons (Bruta blade//CHT).
TOEP - these days, is almost purely a Mage/Warlock/Thunderchicken trinket - yet priests are given free reign on it(ZHC - should be healer priority over Mage/Warlock/Thunderchickens).
Or you can FFA the loot and drop the restrictions that will always seem a tad iffy depending on which lens you look at them through.
As to who actually wins drops, I wholeheartedly believe people should use their discretion, and the current raid leader should always have the final say, if there is a problem with the raid leaders decision(s) it should probably be brought to the forums, or discussed with them in private - reasonably.
We have drawn this line somewhat on outland and people seemed somewhat happier about it after it was drawn.
People need to learn quite _factually_ what works for their classes, and what does not, because at the moment a lot of loot gets wasted (with pretty much the soul exclusion of the loot that goes on your pure-bred tanks).
The class restrictions that are run don't all make sense either, you seem to have a mishmash of influences in your organisation, in that some drops are administered purely by generics and other drops are administered purely by PvE Usage.
Running these two measurements in tandom is counter productive, as it will quickly leave your hybrids, your warriors(when they're not tanking) and your hunters significantly undergeared.
A hunter gains the exact ---- exact* same bonus as a rogue or a warrior (Yes all three classes) in a raiding configuration where the warrior is assumed to be not tanking for that engagement, stats from the core hound tooth, the exact same power and damage increase as a rogue.
Even Feral druids do - but that's somewhat counter intuitive if you are going to evaluate things based purely on PvE Progression.
Aurastone hammer, it may benefit Paladins slightly more than it does your average druid, however Paladins have a far superior instrument in the same instance: Azuresong mageblade - one of the best main hands in early raiding for anyone who can weild it and benefit from it's primary stats (shushrogues/hunters), but druids don't have much else available to them, they're regarded as a 2nd class citizen for this, and a 2nd class citizen for the other main (inferior) 1h they can wield in this instance (Sorcerous dagger) - which other classes apparently beat them out on.
Paladins in terms of armour are /more or less/ restricted to gear that will severely limit them in actualising their full healing potential in an instance.
Warriors are freely allowed the DPS 2h plate and tanking gear, but when it comes to their most effective source of damage (dual wield fury) they're denied their best weapons (Bruta blade//CHT).
TOEP - these days, is almost purely a Mage/Warlock/Thunderchicken trinket - yet priests are given free reign on it(ZHC - should be healer priority over Mage/Warlock/Thunderchickens).
Or you can FFA the loot and drop the restrictions that will always seem a tad iffy depending on which lens you look at them through.
As to who actually wins drops, I wholeheartedly believe people should use their discretion, and the current raid leader should always have the final say, if there is a problem with the raid leaders decision(s) it should probably be brought to the forums, or discussed with them in private - reasonably.
We have drawn this line somewhat on outland and people seemed somewhat happier about it after it was drawn.
People need to learn quite _factually_ what works for their classes, and what does not, because at the moment a lot of loot gets wasted (with pretty much the soul exclusion of the loot that goes on your pure-bred tanks).
"Then, to hide their frailty, they hurt those who are kind.
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."
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Bladesinger
- Posts: 280
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- Location: If I were a snake I'd have bitten you.
I'll be brief on this one, I promise.
I think we need to all tag a main or two and defer looting to those playing their mains when we're on our alts. I said two up there for people like Jack, Liz, and Jyh who have numerous 60s and consistantly play the class most needed by those in the raid. We need to recognize the people who do this regularly and show both our appreciation of it and allow them to bring on another toon when they really want to have a change of pace or don't necessarily want to take one for the team that day.
Perhaps we need to institute a rule allowing people on their mains to get priority over those on alts *on their first winning roll of that run*. After their 1st winning roll of the run all rolls thereafter would be weighted equally against all players rolling, assuming all had already rolled and won something. For example, we have 5 warriors on a run and two are mains with the rest alts. If Mel really wanted some specific piece of loot she could hold off her 1st roll until that item dropped (if it did). Upon making that 1st roll her roll would then be compared to the roll of the other mains who were also making their 1st roll of the run. If all other players had already rolled for and won something Mel would receive the item regardless of what any other players had rolled.
This accomplishes two things.
1: it allows the people playing their mains a certain amount of priorty when rolling for loot while allowing players on their alts the ability to roll on items (and importantly receive loot without cutting out a main) throughout the entire run.
2: it allows for some amount of selective aquisition for people whose mains have a lot of gear and need very specific items to increase their stats.
The main assumptions of this is that our members will behave on the honor system and that all players understand that items may not drop on a run and it's their choice to take the chance and pass on rolls.
I think we need to all tag a main or two and defer looting to those playing their mains when we're on our alts. I said two up there for people like Jack, Liz, and Jyh who have numerous 60s and consistantly play the class most needed by those in the raid. We need to recognize the people who do this regularly and show both our appreciation of it and allow them to bring on another toon when they really want to have a change of pace or don't necessarily want to take one for the team that day.
Perhaps we need to institute a rule allowing people on their mains to get priority over those on alts *on their first winning roll of that run*. After their 1st winning roll of the run all rolls thereafter would be weighted equally against all players rolling, assuming all had already rolled and won something. For example, we have 5 warriors on a run and two are mains with the rest alts. If Mel really wanted some specific piece of loot she could hold off her 1st roll until that item dropped (if it did). Upon making that 1st roll her roll would then be compared to the roll of the other mains who were also making their 1st roll of the run. If all other players had already rolled for and won something Mel would receive the item regardless of what any other players had rolled.
This accomplishes two things.
1: it allows the people playing their mains a certain amount of priorty when rolling for loot while allowing players on their alts the ability to roll on items (and importantly receive loot without cutting out a main) throughout the entire run.
2: it allows for some amount of selective aquisition for people whose mains have a lot of gear and need very specific items to increase their stats.
The main assumptions of this is that our members will behave on the honor system and that all players understand that items may not drop on a run and it's their choice to take the chance and pass on rolls.
Shattered Star since 1998
Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman
Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman
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undrin
- Posts: 438
- Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:34 am
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Ismona
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:34 pm
I am going to chime in a bit on this since I have seen what can happen when loot discussions become a focal point for a guild. In STNY it annoyed the hell out of alot of people, so hopefully I can shed a bit of light for you all.
Alright, when it comes to alts and mains, the main problem for alot of people is who is who. I am not sure if anyone has "declared" a main or has been asked to declare one, so of that I am in the dark.
One quote that has really stood out for me though is the whole " It is nice to see people bringing in a class to fill out the group". So, since these people are bringing in a class to fill out the raid, why should they be denied access to what drops ?
Anyways, I am going to not harp on that at all, it was just a thought for you.
Anyways, back to loot dicussion.
Want it fair ? You have 3 choices.
1) Free role, 1 item per run until everyone has an item.
2) Officer merrit - officers decide who gets what.
3) Pure DKP - will piss people off to no end, but at the end of the day there will be empirical evidence to show what has gone where and who has been participating the most. There are a multitude of programs that will help you track it as well.
So, there you have it, 3 very hard choices to pick from, but at the end of the day, DO NOT let a loot discussion cause problems in the guild as a whole.
Oh, and my 2 cents....Officer merrit would be the way to go for this guild. This is a really tight knit group and I am pretty sure that you can solve your problems this way. Also, do not let the raid bog down at a boss waiting for loot to go. Pack the group up and start clearing, when the loot has been decided or rolled on, that person can always run back and grab the item. This dramaticly sped up all the runs I have ever been on.
GLHF and try to remember, none of this stuff really exisits and it is still just a game....
Alright, when it comes to alts and mains, the main problem for alot of people is who is who. I am not sure if anyone has "declared" a main or has been asked to declare one, so of that I am in the dark.
One quote that has really stood out for me though is the whole " It is nice to see people bringing in a class to fill out the group". So, since these people are bringing in a class to fill out the raid, why should they be denied access to what drops ?
Anyways, I am going to not harp on that at all, it was just a thought for you.
Anyways, back to loot dicussion.
Want it fair ? You have 3 choices.
1) Free role, 1 item per run until everyone has an item.
2) Officer merrit - officers decide who gets what.
3) Pure DKP - will piss people off to no end, but at the end of the day there will be empirical evidence to show what has gone where and who has been participating the most. There are a multitude of programs that will help you track it as well.
So, there you have it, 3 very hard choices to pick from, but at the end of the day, DO NOT let a loot discussion cause problems in the guild as a whole.
Oh, and my 2 cents....Officer merrit would be the way to go for this guild. This is a really tight knit group and I am pretty sure that you can solve your problems this way. Also, do not let the raid bog down at a boss waiting for loot to go. Pack the group up and start clearing, when the loot has been decided or rolled on, that person can always run back and grab the item. This dramaticly sped up all the runs I have ever been on.
GLHF and try to remember, none of this stuff really exisits and it is still just a game....
'May the gods stand between you and harm in all the dark places that you must walk"
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Exarkun
- Posts: 8
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Magdalena
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:59 pm
- Location: Mannoroth, USA
Whatever we do, I think it needs to be across the board, no special favors for certain people...
The question is how to do we want to handle it... don't want to keep them from getting stuff for their alts, but at the same time don't want to end up with someone like Jeremie who sucks at rolls constantly being beat out by people's various alts while they're playing one char the whole time.
One idea is a rolling advantage for mains... still use percentage to see who can roll but do something to give main toons an advantage in the rolling... such as subtract current percentage from the roll of an alt.
Example:
Babydolly - Main toon 8.9%
Alma - Magdalena's Alt 10%
Both are able to roll, but Alma would get 10pts subtracted from her roll. Having a fairly low percentage from being there at every raid makes it not a huge disadvantage, but say another person that doesn't attend often and has 40%, they're going to stand a much smaller chance winning for an alt over someone at the same rate keeping on one character.
Just one idea I came up with to throw out there, actually taken kinda from the idea of a loot system Trix was showing me a bit back.
The question is how to do we want to handle it... don't want to keep them from getting stuff for their alts, but at the same time don't want to end up with someone like Jeremie who sucks at rolls constantly being beat out by people's various alts while they're playing one char the whole time.
One idea is a rolling advantage for mains... still use percentage to see who can roll but do something to give main toons an advantage in the rolling... such as subtract current percentage from the roll of an alt.
Example:
Babydolly - Main toon 8.9%
Alma - Magdalena's Alt 10%
Both are able to roll, but Alma would get 10pts subtracted from her roll. Having a fairly low percentage from being there at every raid makes it not a huge disadvantage, but say another person that doesn't attend often and has 40%, they're going to stand a much smaller chance winning for an alt over someone at the same rate keeping on one character.
Just one idea I came up with to throw out there, actually taken kinda from the idea of a loot system Trix was showing me a bit back.
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Ismona
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:34 pm
Mags, this is where Offcier Merrit would come into play.Magdalena wrote:Whatever we do, I think it needs to be across the board, no special favors for certain people...
The question is how to do we want to handle it... don't want to keep them from getting stuff for their alts, but at the same time don't want to end up with someone like Jeremie who sucks at rolls constantly being beat out by people's various alts while they're playing one char the whole time.
One idea is a rolling advantage for mains... still use percentage to see who can roll but do something to give main toons an advantage in the rolling... such as subtract current percentage from the roll of an alt.
Example:
Babydolly - Main toon 8.9%
Alma - Magdalena's Alt 10%
Both are able to roll, but Alma would get 10pts subtracted from her roll. Having a fairly low percentage from being there at every raid makes it not a huge disadvantage, but say another person that doesn't attend often and has 40%, they're going to stand a much smaller chance winning for an alt over someone at the same rate keeping on one character.
Just one idea I came up with to throw out there, actually taken kinda from the idea of a loot system Trix was showing me a bit back.
If someone is horrible at roles, but shows up every time and brings his A-game, why not default im a piece ? I honestly believe that if someone is doing what they are supposed to do and is working thier butts off trying to get throught the instance with everyone else, they should just be given a peice.
Look, Officer merrit usualy uses a system in place so the officers can have a look at what is going to who. Like, I said, there are programs out there that track DKP - BUT PEOPLE DO NOT USE DKP SYSTEMS. For the longest time the officers in STNY used the DKP monitor to watch to make sure one person, who is lucky with thier roles, does not get 5 peices in a row while somoene else gets none.
You have officer channels, you have people that are good with numbers and you have a few programers available, just utilize them.
Now, for the Alts situation.
If you want, tell people they can run thier alts, but they are on loot restriction FOR NOW. They can have items that everyone else in the raid has defaulted to them, but if an items drops that a primary can use, it should be defaulted to the primary FOR NOW. The situation can be adressed a bit better when you get MC on Farm status.
Anyways.
If you ask Cata for help sorting this out for your guild I am VERY sure he would help you out be telling you how the STNY systems worked. He would tell you where they succeeded and where they failed. I know that you are trying to come up with something that works for JUST this guild, but I am sure that if you asked him for help he would be more than willing.
Oh, you can chat with Merkpriesto as well, he had all the tracking programs on his computer and can tell you where to get them.
Luck to you all, let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
'May the gods stand between you and harm in all the dark places that you must walk"
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Bladesinger
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:53 pm
- Location: If I were a snake I'd have bitten you.
Serious logistics question: How difficult would it be to track attendance percentage for each toon capable of raiding?
- If we did that we could be very specific in our tracking. It would also give players who regularly bring in alts for the good of the group a leg up when rolling on items but would still be equitable to everyone.
I'm all for declaring mains. In fact I'm going to do that right now.
I also see the benefits of pure percentage as well. If someone is attending often, regardless of the toon they're on, they deserve some recognition for that (percentage). If they happen to be on an alt and outroll a main or two with poor percentage for an item so be it. I know I would be dissapointed if someone running Kamaria got the Leaf over Vel, but if their attendance is more consistent than mine they deserve it.
*Those things being said* We tend to be good about deferring to each other when it comes down to it and an Officer Merit system as I understand it might be the best modification for our needs. Our percentage system is still good for this group's mentality and demeanor. As long as we go into a looting situation with the understanding that there will be special circumstances sometimes, such as Jeremie's *pre new-dice* rolling, that may require circumstantial tweaking we should be fine.
If we're concerned about a player getting multiple items per run why not impose a -25 deduction on rolls for the duration of the raid for each item won in that day's run?
For example- Player A wins a BoE item from a trash mob. (-25) He/she then rolls on a BoP item against two other players, his/her roll would be X-25 while all the others would be straight rolls. Should player A still win the item he/she would be now at X-50 for all rolls, greatly reducing the probability he/she would win a roll. Add percentage on top of that and chances Player A will win an overabundance of loot is dramatically reduced.
- If we did that we could be very specific in our tracking. It would also give players who regularly bring in alts for the good of the group a leg up when rolling on items but would still be equitable to everyone.
I'm all for declaring mains. In fact I'm going to do that right now.
I also see the benefits of pure percentage as well. If someone is attending often, regardless of the toon they're on, they deserve some recognition for that (percentage). If they happen to be on an alt and outroll a main or two with poor percentage for an item so be it. I know I would be dissapointed if someone running Kamaria got the Leaf over Vel, but if their attendance is more consistent than mine they deserve it.
*Those things being said* We tend to be good about deferring to each other when it comes down to it and an Officer Merit system as I understand it might be the best modification for our needs. Our percentage system is still good for this group's mentality and demeanor. As long as we go into a looting situation with the understanding that there will be special circumstances sometimes, such as Jeremie's *pre new-dice* rolling, that may require circumstantial tweaking we should be fine.
If we're concerned about a player getting multiple items per run why not impose a -25 deduction on rolls for the duration of the raid for each item won in that day's run?
For example- Player A wins a BoE item from a trash mob. (-25) He/she then rolls on a BoP item against two other players, his/her roll would be X-25 while all the others would be straight rolls. Should player A still win the item he/she would be now at X-50 for all rolls, greatly reducing the probability he/she would win a roll. Add percentage on top of that and chances Player A will win an overabundance of loot is dramatically reduced.
Shattered Star since 1998
Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman
Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman
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Magdalena
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:59 pm
- Location: Mannoroth, USA
Blade, definitely liking some of the ideas you're coming up with. As for tracking alts separately, yes that is easily done, however, if someone were asked to come on an alt to help the group, it's not very fair to their main toon's attendance.
So, along the same lines, what about keeping the loot obtained separate but having alts have say instead of item value being 1, item value for that toon would be 4? Since I've been tracking not only numbers of items but which items, it would be fairly simple to shift the numbers around and distribute items between different characters.
Example:
Magdalena - 22 attendance
Main - (4 Items X 1)/Attendance = 18.18%
Alt - (2 Items X4)/Attendance = 36.36%
Something like this still passes the attendance advantage on to their main toon when they're on it, and allows alts to win items, but gives a slight advantage to other player's main toons while they're on their alts.
As for Kamaria's winning say the leaf over you, QD has been passing on stuff like that when he's on her to our members that need them, something I'd expect of anyone we let play her. She's a little different than your average toon though in that it's not always the same person playing her. I've been tracking attendance for each person individually and putting their attendance towards their main, and haven't been subtracting items they've received due to the fact she's played by different people. Example, QD got the helm on her last night at onyxia only because there were 2 of them and only 2 hunters on that didn't have it... better used on her head than as a shard... but he passed the leaf to Achara even though it was Achara's first night with us because the leaf would be used more by him. Onyxia isn't the best example since we're not tracking loot there anyway or attendance, but it's the most recent example of this.
I also believe QD is right in the need to evaluate usefulness for the mix n match items and look at properly identifying and prioritizing them at least down to classes if not specific builds. This serves 2 purposes... first, getting items into hands where they'll be put to better use and not replaced and be unused shortly after... second, shortens the time it takes to go through the spreadsheet on these items (it's a lot easier to go through one class and see who has the lowest percentage than 3-4). Both of these help us to down bosses faster and get through more to increase the odds of getting something better for those that might have been excluded. They'll still eventually have the ability to get the item, just won't be one of the first most likely.
So, along the same lines, what about keeping the loot obtained separate but having alts have say instead of item value being 1, item value for that toon would be 4? Since I've been tracking not only numbers of items but which items, it would be fairly simple to shift the numbers around and distribute items between different characters.
Example:
Magdalena - 22 attendance
Main - (4 Items X 1)/Attendance = 18.18%
Alt - (2 Items X4)/Attendance = 36.36%
Something like this still passes the attendance advantage on to their main toon when they're on it, and allows alts to win items, but gives a slight advantage to other player's main toons while they're on their alts.
As for Kamaria's winning say the leaf over you, QD has been passing on stuff like that when he's on her to our members that need them, something I'd expect of anyone we let play her. She's a little different than your average toon though in that it's not always the same person playing her. I've been tracking attendance for each person individually and putting their attendance towards their main, and haven't been subtracting items they've received due to the fact she's played by different people. Example, QD got the helm on her last night at onyxia only because there were 2 of them and only 2 hunters on that didn't have it... better used on her head than as a shard... but he passed the leaf to Achara even though it was Achara's first night with us because the leaf would be used more by him. Onyxia isn't the best example since we're not tracking loot there anyway or attendance, but it's the most recent example of this.
I also believe QD is right in the need to evaluate usefulness for the mix n match items and look at properly identifying and prioritizing them at least down to classes if not specific builds. This serves 2 purposes... first, getting items into hands where they'll be put to better use and not replaced and be unused shortly after... second, shortens the time it takes to go through the spreadsheet on these items (it's a lot easier to go through one class and see who has the lowest percentage than 3-4). Both of these help us to down bosses faster and get through more to increase the odds of getting something better for those that might have been excluded. They'll still eventually have the ability to get the item, just won't be one of the first most likely.
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Jophiel
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:29 pm
Ah loot discussion.
It is a very tender topic, but as ismona said, one that needs to be talked about and streamlined.
Personally, whatever you guys decide I'm behind, you are the leaders here and members should follow.
However, I do have suggestions, I like the idea of an officer merit. Coming from a DKP system that I was near the top at I absolutly HATED it. That being said, I doubt there is much risk of SSX going to DKP. As mentioned before, officer merit gives certain advantages that could never be classified in any other type of looting sysetm. Staying in a system with predetermined perameters restricts you from having any wiggle room. Trust me, I experienced this in KOA. However, on the flip side, a standard system allows for strict guidelines that do not faulter and anyone at any time can see what place they hold or where they lie in line for loot.
All that being said, its a tough choice. I think since we are such a tight knit group of people officer merit would be a great choice. We go through such an extensive recruiting process (week of initiate and then guild vote) that we won't have to worry too much about people without our views (they will be screened at the door).
In terms of what classes get what, since we are not on DKP we are going to have to look closely on who can use what and who should use what. I know QD took considerable time and effort to make a chart with most of the items endgame. I've looked at it and while it is radical in parts, it is very true logically. Perhaps we should look at that and maybe consider that to go by. Personally, I hate wow-loot.com
It is a very tender topic, but as ismona said, one that needs to be talked about and streamlined.
Personally, whatever you guys decide I'm behind, you are the leaders here and members should follow.
However, I do have suggestions, I like the idea of an officer merit. Coming from a DKP system that I was near the top at I absolutly HATED it. That being said, I doubt there is much risk of SSX going to DKP. As mentioned before, officer merit gives certain advantages that could never be classified in any other type of looting sysetm. Staying in a system with predetermined perameters restricts you from having any wiggle room. Trust me, I experienced this in KOA. However, on the flip side, a standard system allows for strict guidelines that do not faulter and anyone at any time can see what place they hold or where they lie in line for loot.
All that being said, its a tough choice. I think since we are such a tight knit group of people officer merit would be a great choice. We go through such an extensive recruiting process (week of initiate and then guild vote) that we won't have to worry too much about people without our views (they will be screened at the door).
In terms of what classes get what, since we are not on DKP we are going to have to look closely on who can use what and who should use what. I know QD took considerable time and effort to make a chart with most of the items endgame. I've looked at it and while it is radical in parts, it is very true logically. Perhaps we should look at that and maybe consider that to go by. Personally, I hate wow-loot.com
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Trixster
- Posts: 151
- Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:00 pm
- Location: Mannoroth, USA
Lets try to form this in an easy way to find all the points of topic on this issue. For those of you who are new this is not an issue we are having right now this is something we need to make sure doesnt get abused in the future. We address them before we ever have them so we make sure they are taken care of fairly and properly.
Before we talk about the issues more let decide on a format so we can reference each other easily with out having to retype ideas that then may become misconstrued.
I will try and start a format lets add 2 it so we can make sure what each person who responds fears are because there are many possible issues that can arise in this situation.
An example of a format would be:
1Q: The issue brought to the table.
1P: The issues as I see it.
1A: my answer to the question presented.
What do you think? Will this help or just be 2 much to deal with. My main goal is to also insure we stay on track with the issue being brought up and if the issue is broader then originally stated.
P.S: please excuse any misspelling have tried to go over this a few time.
Before we talk about the issues more let decide on a format so we can reference each other easily with out having to retype ideas that then may become misconstrued.
I will try and start a format lets add 2 it so we can make sure what each person who responds fears are because there are many possible issues that can arise in this situation.
An example of a format would be:
1Q: The issue brought to the table.
1P: The issues as I see it.
1A: my answer to the question presented.
What do you think? Will this help or just be 2 much to deal with. My main goal is to also insure we stay on track with the issue being brought up and if the issue is broader then originally stated.
P.S: please excuse any misspelling have tried to go over this a few time.
Currently playing BF2142 as Starbuck989
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?""
Quote by Will Rogers
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?""
Quote by Will Rogers
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Trixster
- Posts: 151
- Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:00 pm
- Location: Mannoroth, USA
Hey Jophiel one thing to remember is that here is SSX a member and officer are at the same level as far as say on any issues. These talks are open to all members who have a opinion or an idea on the topic.
I would like to also remind everyone the officers can not read you minds so I ask that anyone with ideas or a point of view on the topic please speak up. Some may not like another point of view but no one will trash it. This is how we try to make changes in the guild that will truly benefit the guild and keeps the interest of the guild at heart.
I would like to also remind everyone the officers can not read you minds so I ask that anyone with ideas or a point of view on the topic please speak up. Some may not like another point of view but no one will trash it. This is how we try to make changes in the guild that will truly benefit the guild and keeps the interest of the guild at heart.
Currently playing BF2142 as Starbuck989
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?""
Quote by Will Rogers
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?""
Quote by Will Rogers
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Kayoss
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:00 am
- Location: California
Allow me to describe the system we use on Uther, by a guild that is farming MC/Onyxia/ZG and downs Razorgore weekly (working on furthering BWL) and considers itself "casual" with no DKP:
When someone apps, mains are declared immediately. There is a limited number of classes allowed. Friends and family of current members are automatically invited with mains declared. When someone quits, that class spot opens up to a new app.
Mains > alts every time. This doesn't mean alts won't get loot, they just have to wait a bit longer. Having the main core of the guild equipped first benefits the guild as the whole. It readies the guild to progress into the next instance. If you run MC once a week, the core of the guild will become equipped rather quickly.
Alts are allowed into farmed instances, ONLY IF their main isn't needed to complete the instance. Only mains are allowed into BWL, the current progression instance.
DKP isn't used, but the same information is tracked, i.e. when the character attended which instance, and what loot was received by whom. This information is visible to all members of the guild.
When loot drops, members of that class discuss who gets the item. This works the majority of the time. The members trust and get along with eachother well enough to make the decision; sometimes it's based on seniority, on attendence or on when the character last received loot. However sometimes the group cannot decide, in which case they declare an officer council. Officers then use the DKP info to make their decision. In the rare case they still cannot decide, the competing members roll off for the item.
The definition of "casual raider" will be disputed. Some people play less than others; some feel that they deserve an equal shot at loot, and some do not. This guild on Uther has implemented a title system, which is as follows:
Veteran (members who attend BWL at least 40% of the time)
Corrupt (members who attend BWL less than 40% of the time)
Minion (members who will be promoted to corrupt/veteran after a month's time of evaluation)
Initiate (new app that will be promoted to Minion after 4 raids and guild vote)
Alt (self explanatory)
When loot drops, the rule is as follows:
Veteran > Corrupt > Alt > Minion > Initiate
In this scenerio, all current members of SSX could start on an even slate and set to Veteran, then reevaluated after 30 - 60 days time. Notice that Veterans are not required to attend farmed instances. They only need to attend the current guild's challenge (BWL in the Uther guild's case) a small percentage of the time.
I know this is a bit long-winded, but perhaps you will see some value in this proven system. Despite all of the rules, the Uther guild still considers itself casual, family friendly and non-DKP - and after 82 raids I haven't seen any noticeable disputes over loot, including the guild's first legendary drop.
May I make a huge suggestion: declare mains and count classes now. Class balance is tremendously important in raiding. It's exciting to watch the guild grow, but the expansion contains only 25 man instances! Guild members will become unhappy when they are consistently turned away because of class/member overbalance.
See ya ingame.
When someone apps, mains are declared immediately. There is a limited number of classes allowed. Friends and family of current members are automatically invited with mains declared. When someone quits, that class spot opens up to a new app.
Mains > alts every time. This doesn't mean alts won't get loot, they just have to wait a bit longer. Having the main core of the guild equipped first benefits the guild as the whole. It readies the guild to progress into the next instance. If you run MC once a week, the core of the guild will become equipped rather quickly.
Alts are allowed into farmed instances, ONLY IF their main isn't needed to complete the instance. Only mains are allowed into BWL, the current progression instance.
DKP isn't used, but the same information is tracked, i.e. when the character attended which instance, and what loot was received by whom. This information is visible to all members of the guild.
When loot drops, members of that class discuss who gets the item. This works the majority of the time. The members trust and get along with eachother well enough to make the decision; sometimes it's based on seniority, on attendence or on when the character last received loot. However sometimes the group cannot decide, in which case they declare an officer council. Officers then use the DKP info to make their decision. In the rare case they still cannot decide, the competing members roll off for the item.
The definition of "casual raider" will be disputed. Some people play less than others; some feel that they deserve an equal shot at loot, and some do not. This guild on Uther has implemented a title system, which is as follows:
Veteran (members who attend BWL at least 40% of the time)
Corrupt (members who attend BWL less than 40% of the time)
Minion (members who will be promoted to corrupt/veteran after a month's time of evaluation)
Initiate (new app that will be promoted to Minion after 4 raids and guild vote)
Alt (self explanatory)
When loot drops, the rule is as follows:
Veteran > Corrupt > Alt > Minion > Initiate
In this scenerio, all current members of SSX could start on an even slate and set to Veteran, then reevaluated after 30 - 60 days time. Notice that Veterans are not required to attend farmed instances. They only need to attend the current guild's challenge (BWL in the Uther guild's case) a small percentage of the time.
I know this is a bit long-winded, but perhaps you will see some value in this proven system. Despite all of the rules, the Uther guild still considers itself casual, family friendly and non-DKP - and after 82 raids I haven't seen any noticeable disputes over loot, including the guild's first legendary drop.
May I make a huge suggestion: declare mains and count classes now. Class balance is tremendously important in raiding. It's exciting to watch the guild grow, but the expansion contains only 25 man instances! Guild members will become unhappy when they are consistently turned away because of class/member overbalance.
See ya ingame.
Minke ~ 80 Elven Priest ~ Mannoroth
Mantra ~ 80 Elven Druid ~ Thunderhorn
Mantra ~ 80 Elven Druid ~ Thunderhorn
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Jango
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:56 pm
Here's my two-bits. In some guilds, they adjust the /random to compensate between coming on an different toon(player choice and not raid needs) versus a main.
Such as /random (1-(100+X). Where X can be a standard value for mains or can be derive from attendance.
So statistically, A main will have better odds on winning an item versus an alt.
Now, if someone is really having a bad streak on rolling. I would say Officer Merit can go into play but that should be used sparingly and we have lootless wonder in place already.
I think /random will be a simpler way to go instead of changing item value during mid-game. IMO it has throw off whatever looting system that was in place already and cause people to get upset.
Now, If I understand percentage loot correctly, the reward is in place for people that attend raids and to cut people off if they win more than they attend. Apparently this topic is spurr by some people thinking it is unfair to people with one toon to loose to another person alts on items. But from what I have seen, people have been bringing their better gear toon to help with raids which mean they most likely dont need any of the drops. Should they be penalize for that?
Anyway, no loot system is perfect. It all comes down to who we play with. Personally, I have no problem on passing loot to someone who needs it more but because I DO have multiple toons. I can conflict with almost every class.. SIGHS.. I'll declare a Main if thats what we decide..
*sorry jack.. too lazy to adjust to format since I already started it.
Such as /random (1-(100+X). Where X can be a standard value for mains or can be derive from attendance.
So statistically, A main will have better odds on winning an item versus an alt.
Now, if someone is really having a bad streak on rolling. I would say Officer Merit can go into play but that should be used sparingly and we have lootless wonder in place already.
I think /random will be a simpler way to go instead of changing item value during mid-game. IMO it has throw off whatever looting system that was in place already and cause people to get upset.
Now, If I understand percentage loot correctly, the reward is in place for people that attend raids and to cut people off if they win more than they attend. Apparently this topic is spurr by some people thinking it is unfair to people with one toon to loose to another person alts on items. But from what I have seen, people have been bringing their better gear toon to help with raids which mean they most likely dont need any of the drops. Should they be penalize for that?
Anyway, no loot system is perfect. It all comes down to who we play with. Personally, I have no problem on passing loot to someone who needs it more but because I DO have multiple toons. I can conflict with almost every class.. SIGHS.. I'll declare a Main if thats what we decide..
*sorry jack.. too lazy to adjust to format since I already started it.
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Magdalena
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:59 pm
- Location: Mannoroth, USA
It wasn't spurred by complaints in any way, it was spurred by concerns for future development and in attempt to avoid issues in the future. While a couple of people, yourself being one of them, have better geared alts they often bring, there will at points be people with alts they bring that do need the same or more.Jango wrote:Apparently this topic is spurr by some people thinking it is unfair to people with one toon to loose to another person alts on items. But from what I have seen, people have been bringing their better gear toon to help with raids which mean they most likely dont need any of the drops. Should they be penalize for that?
Going back to myself as an example... my warrior has the majority of items she'll need in the instances we're running right now... as such, my percentage is going to likely just keep dropping. There may be a time where we're overloaded with warriors or needing a break from it (we all need a break in some form once in a while) and I bring on my mage. She's got decent gear (all blue) but by no means in a position to be overgeared to the point of not needing anything. But, at the same time even if bringing her because she is needed, it doesn't feel right for me to use my warrior's low percentage to cut out one of the main mages.
I'd love to say because of how tight-nit the group is we'd never have problems over this, but the I've seen it go through other equally tight-nit groups and spark explosions.
One thing I will say and sorry guys, but I hate the idea of the officer merit system. This relies on human judgement at the time and too easily can lead to accusations of favoritism etc. (whether the favoritism is there or not). While I put great faith and trust in our officers, I don't believe that's a position we want to put ourselves in. Maybe put as a last resort, but officers would have to fully explain what circumstances are causing them to use it before they even state their decision.
Trix: as for keeping format, very tough in the directions this message is going... perhaps if we start another with more specific questions gotten from here...
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Trixster
- Posts: 151
- Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:00 pm
- Location: Mannoroth, USA
Ok after looking at the other posts made on the topic. Let me see if I can flush out what the main issue we want to avoid is. Form there lets see what we have for solutions.
Issues: Having a alt win an item over a main. On the flip side, players that change to an alt, due to the lack of that class to help the guilds progress not being penalized.
Wow when put like that the knife edge is really thin and sharp.
With this being said I do look back when we decided to use this loot system.
When I did something did stand out. The loot rule we decided and voted on. These can be found here at http://www.wowraidloot.com/faq.php
The one I am speaking of is this At any time if all officers are in unanimous agreement may call for a special case on a item drop.
So this shows we already have a partial solution in place. The question now is when this should be put into play concerning alts? Also what are the questions that the officers should be asking during this time?
Issues: Having a alt win an item over a main. On the flip side, players that change to an alt, due to the lack of that class to help the guilds progress not being penalized.
Wow when put like that the knife edge is really thin and sharp.
With this being said I do look back when we decided to use this loot system.
When I did something did stand out. The loot rule we decided and voted on. These can be found here at http://www.wowraidloot.com/faq.php
The one I am speaking of is this At any time if all officers are in unanimous agreement may call for a special case on a item drop.
So this shows we already have a partial solution in place. The question now is when this should be put into play concerning alts? Also what are the questions that the officers should be asking during this time?
Currently playing BF2142 as Starbuck989
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?""
Quote by Will Rogers
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?""
Quote by Will Rogers
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Bladesinger
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:53 pm
- Location: If I were a snake I'd have bitten you.
The questions the officers present need to be addressing, in order of imporance, are:
1- What are the relative percentages for each player?
2- What are the relative percentages of each character involved? (If different than #1)
3- Are those percentage differences due to difference in attendance or differential loot aquisition?
4- Which character would provide the most benefit to the guild if it received the loot?
For example, Undrin, Vel, Achara, Ulrikk, Exarkuun and Kamaria were all miraculously attending the same raid and all rolled on an item where there is some dispute over who should really get it, let's say the GS shoulders. (This is hypothetical after all, Vel is the obvious choice
)Kamaria's player rolls the highest random number, but, since it's an alt of sorts, debate begins on whether or not the toon should receive the item.
The first thing the officers do is look at the relative percentages for the people involved. It turns out that Mark, myself, and whoever is playing Kamaria at the time all have relatively close % as players while Ulrikk is far behind. Since Achara already has the items and mistakenly rolled she's discounted, like wise for Exarkuun who rolled but has better items.
The officers then look at the relative % for each toon and find that Mark and I have a higher % playing Undrin and Vel than does whoever is playing Kamaria. It turns out that both Mark and I have relatively close % playing on our respective toons, requiring more investigation.
After narrowing it down to Undrin and Vel the officers then look at percentage composition and see that Undrin's % is due to a both high attendance and high loot aquisition. Vel's on the other hand is due to lower attendance but also low loot aquisition. The officers then need to decide if Mark's attendance is more important in this case than is my low loot aquisition. If no consensus can be reached they then go to the final criterion, greater benefit to the guild.
Which character would benefit the guild the most by receiving this piece of hardware? Undrin has 3 pieces of the set already and Vel only has two. In this case attaining the 3rd piece set bonus is a greater enhancement for Velorraena than would getting a 4th piece be for Undrin. So, for this particular situation, the officers would rule that Vel should receive the shoulders even though, percentage or roll-wise, Undrin or Kamaria may actually have beaten Vel for the item.
1- What are the relative percentages for each player?
2- What are the relative percentages of each character involved? (If different than #1)
3- Are those percentage differences due to difference in attendance or differential loot aquisition?
4- Which character would provide the most benefit to the guild if it received the loot?
For example, Undrin, Vel, Achara, Ulrikk, Exarkuun and Kamaria were all miraculously attending the same raid and all rolled on an item where there is some dispute over who should really get it, let's say the GS shoulders. (This is hypothetical after all, Vel is the obvious choice
)Kamaria's player rolls the highest random number, but, since it's an alt of sorts, debate begins on whether or not the toon should receive the item. The first thing the officers do is look at the relative percentages for the people involved. It turns out that Mark, myself, and whoever is playing Kamaria at the time all have relatively close % as players while Ulrikk is far behind. Since Achara already has the items and mistakenly rolled she's discounted, like wise for Exarkuun who rolled but has better items.
The officers then look at the relative % for each toon and find that Mark and I have a higher % playing Undrin and Vel than does whoever is playing Kamaria. It turns out that both Mark and I have relatively close % playing on our respective toons, requiring more investigation.
After narrowing it down to Undrin and Vel the officers then look at percentage composition and see that Undrin's % is due to a both high attendance and high loot aquisition. Vel's on the other hand is due to lower attendance but also low loot aquisition. The officers then need to decide if Mark's attendance is more important in this case than is my low loot aquisition. If no consensus can be reached they then go to the final criterion, greater benefit to the guild.
Which character would benefit the guild the most by receiving this piece of hardware? Undrin has 3 pieces of the set already and Vel only has two. In this case attaining the 3rd piece set bonus is a greater enhancement for Velorraena than would getting a 4th piece be for Undrin. So, for this particular situation, the officers would rule that Vel should receive the shoulders even though, percentage or roll-wise, Undrin or Kamaria may actually have beaten Vel for the item.
Shattered Star since 1998
Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman
Gallarien of Lorien, Hunter/Woodsman
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Trixster
- Posts: 151
- Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:00 pm
- Location: Mannoroth, USA
these are very good points Phil. The one thing is in my opinion Kamaria should never beat out someones main due to the fact she is only in there for someone to come in and help the guild.
As far as player vs. player percentage I believe we should let the roll and loot sheet take care of that. It is too hard to say one time its ok to do this and other times is not. Makes gray areas that I dont believe we need to address now.
As for alts I believe a better example would be if we used me on my rouge. If I was to come in to a raid and be on my rouge even though we have 3 other rouges I believe if the item is not a default then I should not receive it, it should go to someone on there main.
On the flip side if I came on the rouge due to the fact we had only 1 or none or because we needed it for some boss that requires X number of rouges in the group. Then yes I believe the character should be able to roll on the item and have just as fair of a chance of winning the item.
If I was go in on the rouge even though we have 4 others but when an item drops only my self and a new rouge in the guild with a low percentage and attendance are the only ones to roll, I could see letting the percentage system do its job. But for me to take an item from a player who has a high attendance I just couldn't see it being fair due to there percentage and attendance.
Its all a matter of perspective I believe. If I was asked to come on a war due to the fact that we had priest covered but didnt have the wars for Gar I would have to say it would be unfair not to allow someone to use there percentage .
Like I said the knife is sharp and the edge is thin.
Is something like this we want to look at?
If so the questions would be:
In the scenario of an Alt vs. main character, we could ask.
Q. where they asked to come on that class or did they, because of an overrun of their class and a lack of the alts class?
Q. who are they rolling against?
Q. what is the attendance of the others in that class who need the item.
Q. what is the max amount of attendance needed for a new player not to be cut out by an alt that is there not because of request or due to lack of a class but by personal choice only?
As far as player vs. player percentage I believe we should let the roll and loot sheet take care of that. It is too hard to say one time its ok to do this and other times is not. Makes gray areas that I dont believe we need to address now.
As for alts I believe a better example would be if we used me on my rouge. If I was to come in to a raid and be on my rouge even though we have 3 other rouges I believe if the item is not a default then I should not receive it, it should go to someone on there main.
On the flip side if I came on the rouge due to the fact we had only 1 or none or because we needed it for some boss that requires X number of rouges in the group. Then yes I believe the character should be able to roll on the item and have just as fair of a chance of winning the item.
If I was go in on the rouge even though we have 4 others but when an item drops only my self and a new rouge in the guild with a low percentage and attendance are the only ones to roll, I could see letting the percentage system do its job. But for me to take an item from a player who has a high attendance I just couldn't see it being fair due to there percentage and attendance.
Its all a matter of perspective I believe. If I was asked to come on a war due to the fact that we had priest covered but didnt have the wars for Gar I would have to say it would be unfair not to allow someone to use there percentage .
Like I said the knife is sharp and the edge is thin.
Is something like this we want to look at?
If so the questions would be:
In the scenario of an Alt vs. main character, we could ask.
Q. where they asked to come on that class or did they, because of an overrun of their class and a lack of the alts class?
Q. who are they rolling against?
Q. what is the attendance of the others in that class who need the item.
Q. what is the max amount of attendance needed for a new player not to be cut out by an alt that is there not because of request or due to lack of a class but by personal choice only?
Currently playing BF2142 as Starbuck989
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?""
Quote by Will Rogers
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?""
Quote by Will Rogers
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Magdalena
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:59 pm
- Location: Mannoroth, USA
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Destinee
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:52 am
I know you guys see officers and members on a equal level.
That may be true.
However I think the leadership of this guild is very very strong.
And I would be 100% confident in leaving it in the hands of the officers when loot is determined. I think most of the Vets here would as well.
New people joining may see it differently.
But then if they do maybe this guild is not right for them.
Officers are there almost every raid so know who shows up all the time and brings their A game. They also have the loot sheet at their side so they can better determine who has won what and who should get the next piece of loot.
Using a straight % eliminates so many other factors which I think should be considered when someone wants loot they have worked so hard for.
I vote for officer merit.
That may be true.
However I think the leadership of this guild is very very strong.
And I would be 100% confident in leaving it in the hands of the officers when loot is determined. I think most of the Vets here would as well.
New people joining may see it differently.
But then if they do maybe this guild is not right for them.
Officers are there almost every raid so know who shows up all the time and brings their A game. They also have the loot sheet at their side so they can better determine who has won what and who should get the next piece of loot.
Using a straight % eliminates so many other factors which I think should be considered when someone wants loot they have worked so hard for.
I vote for officer merit.
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lili
- Posts: 693
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 9:12 pm
- Location: The hospital
My thoughts.... (and just my thoughts...not a response to any of the above posts)
First of all I firmly believe that the members of this guild are not self-absorbed. And if there are people like that in this guild I strong suggest them to reconsider what kind of guild they have joined and either change their ways or leave. Personally I am ecstatic when ever any member of the guild gets a piece of equipment (blue or purple) that will greatly improve their stats. I am personally not a fan of officer merit because of the fact that I think the members are more than happy to pass of a piece if another person has been waiting for it for a long time. I also believe that when it comes to alts, that the members on alts are more than happy to pass on a piece if another persons main (or in most cases their only 60) can greatly benefit from it. I do not want to see an officer telling someone that they can or cannot have a certain item. I rather have people be considerate and cooperate. Everyone will eventually have all of his or her gear. The last thing I want to see is someone leaving the guild because an officer told him or her that they could not get certain loot. I like to believe that even though the world is never fair and perfect, our little family are still fair to each one of our members. I know that what I have posted is not an answer or a solution to any of the questions above, but I really would like to believe that loot would not become THE issue of this guild. I believe that this game is fun and a form of relaxation for the people who play not a burden.
First of all I firmly believe that the members of this guild are not self-absorbed. And if there are people like that in this guild I strong suggest them to reconsider what kind of guild they have joined and either change their ways or leave. Personally I am ecstatic when ever any member of the guild gets a piece of equipment (blue or purple) that will greatly improve their stats. I am personally not a fan of officer merit because of the fact that I think the members are more than happy to pass of a piece if another person has been waiting for it for a long time. I also believe that when it comes to alts, that the members on alts are more than happy to pass on a piece if another persons main (or in most cases their only 60) can greatly benefit from it. I do not want to see an officer telling someone that they can or cannot have a certain item. I rather have people be considerate and cooperate. Everyone will eventually have all of his or her gear. The last thing I want to see is someone leaving the guild because an officer told him or her that they could not get certain loot. I like to believe that even though the world is never fair and perfect, our little family are still fair to each one of our members. I know that what I have posted is not an answer or a solution to any of the questions above, but I really would like to believe that loot would not become THE issue of this guild. I believe that this game is fun and a form of relaxation for the people who play not a burden.
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Bladesinger
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:53 pm
- Location: If I were a snake I'd have bitten you.
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Achara
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:19 pm
- Location: Ontario, Canada
I do not think an alt should get a set piece over a main.
I do promise to elaborate further, but for now I'm still quite stressed over the situation that occured Friday night and repeated itself on Saturday.
This needs to be resolved one way or another before I'll be able to raid again. There are enough stressful things going on in my life that I for one cannot cope with additional negativity caused by a game.
~ Catherine
*** edit: I think this is what happens when I post and am still conflicted. Please do not think that the items are my main concern. The hunter group contains a lot of people that are very important to me. The conflict that occured, the lack of open discussion, and peaceful resolution was what really pained me.
Whatever the end decision is, I just want it made and documented so that there is no reason to argue.
I do promise to elaborate further, but for now I'm still quite stressed over the situation that occured Friday night and repeated itself on Saturday.
This needs to be resolved one way or another before I'll be able to raid again. There are enough stressful things going on in my life that I for one cannot cope with additional negativity caused by a game.
~ Catherine
*** edit: I think this is what happens when I post and am still conflicted. Please do not think that the items are my main concern. The hunter group contains a lot of people that are very important to me. The conflict that occured, the lack of open discussion, and peaceful resolution was what really pained me.
Whatever the end decision is, I just want it made and documented so that there is no reason to argue.
Last edited by Achara on Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lili
- Posts: 693
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 9:12 pm
- Location: The hospital
What I believe is still unchanged from my earlier post. I like to think that this game is about fun, but blizzard has made it about loot. I strongly sugguest the self absorbed people to leave the guild as I have posted 2 months ago.
Babydolly Frost Mage 70
Pocky Protection Pally 70
I didn't fall from grace, I dove.
What do you mean my halo is lopsided, it's balanced perfectly on my horns.
Pocky Protection Pally 70
I didn't fall from grace, I dove.
What do you mean my halo is lopsided, it's balanced perfectly on my horns.