Thanks for Everything

[Ismona]

Well, I am going to try to explain this as best as I can so to avoide any misconceptions, bear with me because this might take a moment or 2 of your time.

On Thursday at work Jason ( Axavier ) told me that there was some "discussion" about my having characters still in STNY and that there were some worries about my loyalties. I was a little shocked by this and to be honest, I was rather upset about it...and I guess in some small way, I still am. That aside, I will continue.

Jason said that they had instituted a new rule about duel guilding after the whole Grey Goose fiasco.

For the record, I had NOTHING to do with that whatsoever. People attempted to explain it to me, but to be honest, I really don't care, so I didn't really pay to much attention.

Also for the record, I have been duel guilding with SSX and STNY since last year as well. Obviously with the new rules that you guys started with, jay told me my options.

Now, I am going to be very straight with all of you, my first loyalty is to my family, my second is to my friends, then my co-workers...with a game guild somewhere in there.

STNY is different though, I have been with them for almost 4 years now, through alot of up and downs. Even when Ismona, Oliet and Aragoth were in SSX after the guild imploded, I still had 4 alts in STNY. Yes I am admitting that, and I am also admitting that I had no intention of pulling any of those alts out of that guild. Reason being, when you spend time at a persons house in another country, drink with them, share meals and enjoy playing games with them, they become friends very quickly. When you game with a group of people for a very long time, you can't ever just walk away. Besides, I really enjoy my discussions with Dish, Skier, Cav, Chippy and of coarse, Cata, one of my best friends in that guild...and a damn good drinking buddy.

For those reasons, I could never totaly pull out of STNY.

So, out of respect for the officers of SSX, and to the rule that you had made, I withdrew Oliet and Aragoth. It was not out of malice, or anger towards ANYONE in that guild. It was out of respect for the officers and the people that are there. I have always abided by the guild rules, and I will continue to respect them. If this caused anyone any problems, I am truly sorry, the last thing I wanted to do it to cause any other tension.

I have returned to STNY, but I would hope that we can continue to talk and spend time together, I still enjoy my friendships there, and even though I am no longer part of your guild, I will continue to send people that are looking for a good group of adults to play with to your door while sending the hard cores towards STNY.

If you have any further questions, I still will continue to read this site.

Good luck and cya around the world

[M.Steiner]

I'm not sure what made the mods decide to implement the no-multiclanning rule now and why it was decided not to implement it when the group was originally set up, but whatever the reason for it being implemented now and not before i'm sure it wasn't anything personal towards you. We didn't use that rule in our FF group either actually but that's because it was very common for people to setup linkshells (guilds) for raiding purposes and use them like you would a pug in WoW, used as a workaround kinda..

As a matter of fact, the no multi-clanning rule has been around in the SSC/SSX for a very long time, forever maybe. So it's not really a new rule on the whole.. It just isn't written down anywhere except for our WoW:EU/NC sites afaik, it probably should be though to avoid confusion. The rule was certainly enforced when i originally joined the SSC in Neocron and that was in 2003 iirc, i'm not sure how far it goes back. In Neocron where we frequently had clan wars against other hostile clans/factions in order for us to gain control of our own outposts, it was possible in that game to have a character in both our clan as well as the enemies. If ever there came a time where both our clans were at war with one another... Well you can figure out what kinda complications that would have caused heh. Which clan would the person choose to support at op wars for a start... Its usually implemented to avoid problems it may cause in the future, because somewhere down the line it usually does in some shape or form. Mebbe it had started to do so in this group so the mods decided to reimplement it.. I'm not sure.. I did hear a while ago that this group wasn't using it but as i never saw any signs on the forums of people abusing it or it causing problems for the group i didn't want to start any by me bringing it up and making it one, so i just didn't say anything.

The rule goes that we don't allow multi-clanning on the same server that we play on (especially in games where we compete against other guilds in some way, like the example of Neocron above), being in another guild on any other server is fine though. Sooo if you decided you still wanted to remain in our community outside of the WoW:US group and mebbe play some other games with the SSX in the future that should be perfectly fine unless theres something i'm missing, as i've pointed out to a few people before, you don't have to leave the SSX completely unless you choose to.

Sry for the history lesson btw, good luck.

[QuantumDelta]

It was put up in FS2, to govern me.
And I was just as strict in enforcing it in every other game since.
Perhaps why only my divisions/groups/whatever you want to call them ever actually care about such things :P

[Inquisitor]

It wasn't just you.

And it seems to cause problems when we don't. Nearly without fail. Any time competition is involved.

I have no idea what happened in this instance, I wouldn't even hazard a guess, but any time multi-clanning is involved, and its not 1000% in the open, people whisper, and other people get cranky, and yet other people feel betrayed. Lots of possibilities.

So maybe I would hazard a guess, afterall.

Sorry to hear it came to you leaving, Ismona. By all means, follow your friends. I wouldn't, personally, have it any other way.

[RagingDeath]

One day i asked if anyone needed their noobs ran through any instance and Aragoth, who was one of Insmona's alts that was with SSX said he had an alt that needed to be run through deadmines. Well when he came on and got the invite from me, i noticed he had an STNY tag and asked him why he was still in STNY and mentioned that dual guilding is a bad idea and that we are against it. Well after that he said nm didnt need the help and logged off and was unreachable for any further explanation or mediation. We did have the dual guild discussion awhile ago and knew that SSX as a whole does not accept dual guilding. MS gives great examples of the problems it can cause, its just not good. Shawn if ya woulda gave us a chance to talk to ya, mabye we could have came up with a compromise. But was fun runnin with ya and still might run with ya in the future Shawn.

[Alorah]

I don't see the problem with dual guilds in this game. Each character can only have one guild. Guilds can't really compete in this game for the same thing. That is they can do not compete over outposts or notorious monsters, the worst thing that happens is that a character can't redo an instance for X number of days. Anyway, don't know why everyone knows who everyone else's characters are. If someone was gonna go an do something frowned upon in one of their guilds, you'd think they'd at least hide it....

[undrin]

The not allowing of duel guilding was never made a rule. It was disscussed quite awhlie ago but it was decided that due to our Manao guild not starting out that way and many members having affiliations due to friendships in other guildes we would not implement it.

[Inquisitor]

It seems that some people think it is a rule.

Whether it should be or not is another discussion. If its not currently, then someone seems to have quit due to a misunderstanding.

Someone said something about open communication being a good thing...

[BlackDove]

The reasons and the "why" needs to be put up when the rule comes into question for use or not.

The reason it was instituted in the SSC and in almost every game we've played afterwards, is because being in multiple guilds is a conflict of interest. Directly in regards to PvP, and indirectly in regards to time-sharing and resource sharing.

In FS2 we've had it because it created a conflict of interest when it came picking and choosing sides. If the SSC and some other squad were to face off, a person that was in both at the same time would be unable to participate, and not only that, but would probably feel unwelcome if there was outright hostility between the two groups.

MMO's are bigger, and therefore they have more applications in which a conflict of interest could arise, most of them being centered around the feeling of betrayal and inferiority (my view) in terms of not only dividing friendship, but resources and interests as well.

It would be a good idea to codify this for any given game, and institute it immediately upon formation of a guild/clan in a particular game, so the rule adjusts to the game mechanics. Mark the fact that there is always going to be a conflict of interest, and what the line people shouldn't cross is.

Otherwise, it's like pissing in the wind. Sooner or later, the thing is going to break, especially if the game mechanics haven't been evaluated properly from the start.

[Zepol]

I believe that the reason it was put was because one of our ex-members left the guild and took a couple of players so fearing that those players would do the same they were asked to remove there alternate characters as well.

Once again this is my opinion and i might be wrong so dont take my word for it.

[Inquisitor]

Then its similar to every other time this has bit us in the behind. As BD colourfully put it "pissing in the wind." While he's alot mroe abrupt than I am (its part of his charm), his point is valid.

There is implied competition in these games, for resources, for players, for shared secrets, tactics, fame, respect, whatever. You name it. If there wasn't, you'd all be in one big happy guild, not dozens/hundreds of smaller ones.

When people do what Zepol described, the people left behind end up feeling "used" and "betrayed" and ultimately "suspicious" of anyone else who MIGHT do it again. trust plays a huge role in this stuff, and all you REALLY have is trust here in our virtual land.

Again, alot of this gets solved by open, honest, and frequent communication moderated by cool heads.

So, the people in charge of WoW US need to clarify this for the rest of us, in a public forum, somewhere semi permanent. I have not looked at the guild site recently. If this is a rule (and it probably should be) it needs to be clearly communicated, posted and everyone needs to understand it and abide by it. Rules can have exceptions, nothing is that black and white, but you HAVE to start somewhere.

If it was not a rule, then someone has taken it as such and you have lost them.

People who post resignations instead of asking for clarification share the blame here. If I had been Ismona, my post would have been something like:

"I understand we have a new rule, can someone clarify it for me? I understand it to be X Y Z"

And then decided on a course of action regarding resignation. But that's me.

So, I'll do it for anyone who is left.