Multiple Guild memberships and the SSX

[Inquisitor]

In the past, and in many games, the SSX has had an explicit rule against "multi-clanning."

This is largely meant for competitive games, it stemmed from people behaving less than honorably in a game called FS2, where there was a persistent online component. It has followed us into almost every game, and with the rise in popularity of the MMO, and the nature of most MMO's (especially PvP oriented ones) has naturally followed us into those worlds.

It is my understanding the the current SSX-US group does not have a policy prohibiting this multi-clanning. And at least one person thinks it is a new rule, and has apparently resigned over it. See http://www.shatteredstar.org/forums/vie ... 03c76998ed for more detail on that.

I have two questions:

1) Is there such a rule?

2) If not, I'd like an honest, open discussion about what such a rule would mean, and if its necessary to implement. I personally think its useful, and solves more problems than it causes, if implemented properly, and allows for the occasional exception.

If this thread gets too much traffic from non-members, I'll dump it up in Members only. You'll be able to read, but not comment.

Keep it civil.

[QuantumDelta]

Whilst I was no officer in my time on mannoroth I was supporting them regularly, and this subject popped up, naturally you know how I am with this rule.

For the entire time that I was around, there was no such rule active for the group, the mods of the group were aware of it and had discussed it but due to having strong relations with guilds like STNY, and some members being members of both guilds, they had chosen not to put it out as a rule.

It was very clear at the time that it was benefiting the group, and although no one has really disclosed full details of what happened in their recent mishap I don't think the lack of this rule caused the problem.

I can't say more than that, since the recent change I haven't been around for.

[Fenavian]

Although I think I pretty much know the answer to this but this whole 'no multi-clanning' thing only applies to the current server correct? I have made no secret that I play across several servers, all with my RL friends and family. So if there is indeed a rule based on this I would like some clarification as well, but until I am told otherwise, I will assume its server based.

[M.Steiner]

but this whole 'no multi-clanning' thing only applies to the current server correct?

Aye

The rule goes that we don't allow multi-clanning on the same server that we play on (especially in games where we compete against other guilds in some way, like the example of Neocron above), being in another guild on any other server is fine though.

[undrin]

As I stated in the last thread in regards to this. There IS no rule stating that you can not multiclan as you call it. As an acting officer who did attend that meeting I do remember the conversation. While it was agreed that it would be discouraged, it would not be a rule that no one could do this. Due to the fact this facet of SSX did not start the guild this way and had a lot of dedicated members and friends that were playing with other guilds. We did not feel it would be beneficial to this group to enforce this rule. We also discussed that if we were all to move to a different game together we would make this an enforced rule just to avoid this type of thing. So to restate we do not have this rule nor as of the last time this was brought up ever intended it to be one while in World of Warcraft. I hope this clears up any confusion.

[Stracius]

Thanks for clearing that up, Undrin. Having policies actually put in a (semi)permanent form is really quite helpful (hint hint for any future mod meetings ). Tends to reduce confusion, and they can remain flexible.

Someone might wanna let Ismona know, though...

[BlackDove]

It's simple really.

Find the conflict of interest and eliminate it. That was all we ever did. That is all we should ever do.

[Padishar]

For the most part, our major decisions during meetings have been recorded here. I assumed this one was as well a LONG time ago.

I guess not. Sooooothis is what I remember of it.

Is there a direct unbendable rule against dual-guilding? No.
What is the actual rule?
Each individual who desires to do so is then simply reviewed to see if it conflicts with the greater good of the guild as a whole. Even then it is discouraged, frowned upon, and is requested that it be as out in the open as much as possible, so no conflict of interest, problems and/or hurt feelings arise from such actions.

This dual guilding issue first arose more then a year ago and when it came into question, it was not from individuals who desired to dual guild, but from spouses/family of prominent members of the SSX Manno group, who were already dual-guilded. Since we did not have a direct rule banning such a thing before hand, we had to decide if we could allow this or if we had to ask them to leave.

Nothing was purposefully hidden or deceitful, so it was decided that although discouraged, it could be allowed, if it was for the greater good and harmony of our group. Yes, this creates more overhead then having some blanket rule that bans it outright, but it also allowed flexibility for family members who were previously guilded before their significant others (or children) joined us.

Fast forward a couple of years to now.
We have A LOT of people in the guild. With many opinions and feelings of how things should or shouldnt be.

A recent incident occurred where a group of individuals left and formed their own guild.
Even though great effort was placed by both parties to make this exodus as painless as possible, there are still a flurry of questions and mixed emotions (often anger or betrayal) against some of those individuals for leaving in such a fashion
or in some eyes
such a questionable manner (which is to be expected I suppose).

We asked those leaving to take their alts with them. As we could not allow them to leave alts behind, this decision was not a personal affront to any individual who was leaving, but was decided to be in the best interest of our group as a whole. We could not allow a separate guild to continue to use our resources, recruit from within our guild and hurt more individuals feelings then had already been.

This group turned around and joined STNY, a guild we happen to be allied to and roll with often.
This of course upset even more individuals, the reasons are varied and I will not spread speculation on this topic. But it is causing some conflict and is an area of concern now for anyone who might be mixed up in the drama.

Now I don't believe Shawn did anything wrong, on the contrary he has always been kind of our liaison between us and STNY.
STNY all but died, and was eventually rebuilt and is still reforming I believe with many old members coming back.

It is sad that he did not simply discuss things with us, especially when he found out a few people had concerns due to the recent drama and events. All of which I believe have little to do with him.

Any Issue or concerns people had could have easily been worked out.

[requiemdreamer]

There wouldn't be much point for me to comment on this topic as anything I would say has already been covered by Undrin and Padishar. I will simply re-affirm that the "anti-dual-guilding" policy is meant only as a safeguard to prevent unnecessary problems that could and would most likely ensue from someone belonging to multiple guilds. It was not caused by or created for any specific people.

[Ismona]

For the record, I read the webiste every day. I am still in constance contact with people in SSX, I have just had a change of tags over my head. I still like to consider myself a member of the community here, but like I said before, I was a part of the STNY community long before I was here, so I hope the no one was offended by what I decided.

As for the whole multi guild rule, I am not offended by it in any way. As you can see, with people like Chris ( Hokie ) we have had a change of guild tag, but we still try to be part of the community. I also believe that if you make rules, you obey them, agree or disagree regardless. You guys made a rule, and I obeyed it, even though I still try to be part of the community.

I also try to think of SSX and STNY as pretty much the same guild since we have shared alot of the same instances. It is nice to add "Hard Core" members to any 5 man instance ( Mike fits the bill there really well as well, so I am not speaking just about STNY ).

Oh, and for those that are looking to go to Kara, there might be some oppertunities coming up for the people that cannot play as much as some to be able to join in a raid. I think this will work well in both directions as you can start to form "teams" from both sides of the tabe. STNY added a number of new people recently and have had a farily large surge in membership. Problem is, it is still really hard to get 5 man groups in that guild, lol.

Anyways, I am still here in one way or another and I am still hanging in vent, so we can talk anytime you guys want.

[Stracius]

Errrmm..

There IS no rule stating that you can not multiclan as you call it... While it was agreed that it would be discouraged, it would not be a rule that no one could do this.

I suppose that might be confuseled by requiem's post...

I will simply re-affirm that the "anti-dual-guilding" policy is meant only as a safeguard to prevent unnecessary problems that could and would most likely ensue from someone belonging to multiple guilds.

Policies != rules? You guys might wanna work this out a bit more. But
otherwise it would seem that this:

Someone might wanna let Ismona know, though...

did not happen

right... what was that thing about communi something or other again? *sigh*

[Padishar]

Are we against Dual-Guilding? Yes
Is there a direct rule against it? No

Any questions?

[Inquisitor]

You'd think this would be a simple, Yes/No question

[undrin]

This has already been answered and I am not sure why we are still confused. This may not be what the Guild as a whole does it but do to the circumstances mentioned we are keeping it this way. I hope Pad made it clear with his short post. Which by the way is a crazy short post by him. I am not sure I have ever seen such a short one.

[Inquisitor]

Read Strac's post. You say no, pad said no, req said yes.

That's why some people are confused, some mismatched information there. Hell, I am confused, it sounds like the "preference" may have been stated in such a way that it sounded like a rule, and if one person believed that to be the case, I bet you a dollar others do as well. That old teaching addage "There are no stupid questions, chances are good if you have the question, several of your classmates do as well and are just too unsure of themselves to ask it." seems to apply here.

If one person verbalizes confusion, chances are good there is at least one other person out there with the same confusion.

Follow?

[Aoiren]

Inquisitor, the answer to the question has been posted.

Not sure what can be done to clarify it more, however I will make the following statement.

The guild SSX on the WoW Mannoroth server does not have rule against SSX guild members having characters in other guilds on the Wow Mannoroth server.

As with anything in game, any individual(s) that choses to abuse this or any freedom to cause discord within the guild will be warned. If the behavior continues it will be addressed in a SSX WoW Mannoroth officer's meeting and action will be taken.

That being said this is a game and games are supposed to be fun. As an SSX Mannoroth officer I can say that a hard line is only taken if the situation warrants it.

[Inquisitor]

Fine, its clear to me. I still see contradiction and potential confusion here. Nothing in your statement answers this question:

Is it crystal clear to your members?

Yes, its about fun. It should remain about fun. For better or for worse, you, as officers, have the dubious honor of helping ensure that the members have fun. MMO's breed drama, the Internet breeds misunderstandings. Find ways to avoid contradiction, make sure you know what everyone is saying on a subject, esepcially a touchy subject that the rest of us care about and potentially impacts peoples ability to have fun.

To quote (somewhat sarcastically), "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

I'm not trying to reprimand you, as a group. I am trying to avoid misunderstandings both internally to your group, as well as externally to our community at large. You seem to have had at least ONE person who was so confused, they left.

Hopefully, this threads very existence clarifies that confusion for everyone. Hopefully.

Does that make sense?

[Monamy]

Umm.. My reply here might or might not appear very clear, since I've never faced any guild that said multi-clanning is a big no no.

But my personal point of view here is this:

Some of us, counting me first, have many alts. It's not for the perpose of multi-clanning but simply Multi-Proffing! Yes, you did see the words correctly, the game allows for only 2 proffs per character, my first character was this one, a mage with alchy/herbs as proffs, but then I got really bored from playing the class and thought of making an alt, so my alt paladin appeared with BS/mining proffs.

(this might not discuss the subject yet, but please keep reading)

At the time I reached lvl40 with my paladin, I was in Tattered Virtue guild back then, I found out that I need Leather from Leathercrafting and some Engineering parts to make my BS equips and stuff. I'm not the kind that looks for such things in the AH or ask a guildy for them - I rarely do that - but I make another class alt (just for the hick of trying the class if I like it or not, and to know the skills better) and take 2 other proffs.

Here is where it starts

Stating the fact of them being alts, I don't wish to include my alts to my main character's guild - Mil doesn't care though - because I don't really log that much with them, I just do when I feel like getting some items from other proffs or when I really get sick from playing my mage.

Now, you might think "Yea, ok.. but WHY other guilds?"

I'll answer to that with this:
Imagin, just imagin, everyone in guild adding their alts too in the guild... Let's say the MAIN characters in the guild are 100, and by far, I beleive everyone has at least 1 alt! if not 2!

Now all of those alts are going to be mixed with non-active main characters in the guild, and when one of the officers do the kicky-kick thingi, they won't really know who to kick, they'll actually get tired of the long list of members in the first place! so an alt might just look like a non-active main character in the guild.. I asume the reader knows the rest...

Ofcourse, I'm not saying that you shouldn't invite an alt to the guild, no.

Mil - my old bro - has Limitbreak in the guild, and although Limitbreak is an alt, he logs in with Limitbreak just as often as Mil. In this case, the reason for him to add Limitbreak in the guild is there, Limitbreak is somewhat more like an Another-Main than an alt.

I.. hope my point is clear
(English is not my main language, so you might find my post kinda... weak)

*bow~*

[BlackDove]

That can easily be solved by creating and maintaining a main-to-alt membership list, where every member designates their main character, and their alt characters.

If and when a time comes for ejection, the list is referenced, and proper characters are removed.

Something that should be done regardless of the rule, actually.

[M.Steiner]

Now all of those alts are going to be mixed with non-active main characters in the guild, and when one of the officers do the kicky-kick thingi, they won't really know who to kick

creating and maintaining a main-to-alt membership list, where every member designates their main character, and their alt characters.

Or, you could always use the officer notes ingame. When an officer invites a character to the guild, they add a note next to their name in the members list stating who's alt it is.

[requiemdreamer]

To address Monamy's post...

Our current process is that when someone is first invited to the guild, they are added as an initiate. Once that person is brought in as a member, all of their alternate characters are also promoted. Each alt has an officer tag naming what main character those alts belong to (i.e. my alts Saegloplur and Req both have officer tags saying "Requiemdream's Alt") Members will not be kicked due to inactivity, however.... if initiates remain offline for a reasonably long duration, the standard procedure is to mail an in-game message to that initiate asking for a response. That person is then removed if they are still nowhere to be found.

Cliffs Notes: It was probably initiates that have been missing for a while that you may have seen being removed. Members are not removed.

[Bladesinger]

There is a problem inherent in multi-guilding, but we have yet to have a serious issue with it: Main vs. Alt *guilds*. What happens when a player is active in two guilds that have a scheduled activity on the same night? Which guild does the player choose and what happens to the other guild who may be depending on that player to be around for said activity?

The question could be posed that we haven't had issues with this before, why would we now? To answer that, when we were raiding it wasn't as big a deal to be missing one or two people from the raid as long as they weren't essential personnel. We were a much larger guild then and had more human and character class resources to draw from.

Now that isn't the case. Not only are we smaller now in numbers of members but also numbers of raid-capable characters. We may have people with multiple 70s now, but the vast majority of us have only one character that is raid-capable (barring attunement issues). That means each player is essential to our raid efforts.

Furthermore the small unit nature of new raids doesn't allow much wiggle room. Now that we're going to have to split the guild up into multiple raid groups one person's absence can make a serious difference to a large portion of the guild's raid progress. It seems very selfish to me for a member to hold back nine other guild members' progress because he/she decided to do an activity with another guild he/she was a member of along with SSX.

This doesn't mean you can't have alts. God knows we all have them for many different reasons. However, having alts doesn't mean they have to be in a different guild and it doesn't mean that you can't play with people outside of SSX. This also doesn't mean that you can't go on raids with other guilds as long as you're not taking away from the SSX effort. If you've got two raid-capable characters and all of the SSX raid groups are full and/or saved to an instance by all means, feel free to raid with your other one as well! Likewise, if your regular SSX raid group isn't raiding during the usual reset time and there are no other SSX groups forming feel free to raid with other guilds on your main.

The overall SSX multi-guild rule wasn't set up to restrict individual members' fun, it was set up to minimize potential conflicts of interest that could affect the fun of the whole group. Don't set yourself up for conflicts of interest that may have a serious effect on your guild(s)!!!!!!! Pick one guild and put all of your effort into that one guild.

[Monamy]

Quoted from SSX-Bladesinger:

What happens when a player is active in two guilds that have a scheduled activity on the same night? Which guild does the player choose and what happens to the other guild who may be depending on that player to be around for said activity?

Now I understand the seriousness of this issue, thank you

In that case, I too think it's uberly important to keep one's efforts on one guild, it makes sense now.

As for the rest of that post, I couldn't agree more
I know myself that I keep trying my best for SSX, and I hope one day that me being a guildy would really mean something to the rest of the guildies


*bow~*