Please read - This will have an impact on our guild

[Magdalena]

Please be patient and read all the way through, this is long but I think very important for all of us.

It's stated here that we allow everybody to choose whatever class and spec they want and to play the game the way they want. This is because we all enjoy our friends for who they are and want them to be happy in the game and have fun together. However, this is made tough on some as those same friends don't show the same respect back. If one of my friends is trying to compete for rank in PVP, I'm not going to go in and hold them back distracting them with my PVE char as I realize this would hinder their progress. I would be sitting back and cheering them on as they progress. When they had break times, I would enjoy goof-off time with them doing something else.

However, doing PVE content is something I and several others that I know of want to do in this game and accomplishments we want to help one another achieve. Whether realized or not, this progress is being hindered by some of our friends who either dont realize the effect they are having or dont realize this is a goal to some of us.

We're a group of friends who enjoy helping one another, so I'm sure these things weren't intended to hold your friends back from completing their goals, so I felt each of you would likely want to know the effect your actions are having.

There are those of us as stated that want to start finishing end game content, finishing instances like ZG and AQ20 followed by MC, Onyxia, BWL, etc. If this is something you want to do, take time to realize the things you may be doing to make it tougher and less fun for the rest of your friends, each no you answer has a fairly signifigant impact on the progress the group is able to make.
1. Are you putting all the effort you can to it or are you easily distracted? (RL happens but missing a critical event because youre daydreaming or pming someone in-game hurts the group a lot. If its RL, have the courtesy to tell your friends, trust me all will understand and see you next time.)
2. Are you at least working on getting the right gear for what your class needs for this instance? (Most still have areas to work, thats fine but if youre in all PVP gear or a War in Pally gear or dmg gear, etc and youre not working at getting what is needed, those are the ones that hurt the group here. Dont know anybody here that wont help you get it either, so not seeing much excuse if youre not trying.)
3. Are you the right spec to be the most beneficial to your friends in end game raids?
(Most know what these are, if you dont, ask me and Ill be happy to help you with this one. Asking means youre at least trying. If youre a shammy sorry I cant help as Ive never played with one. Others: If I cant answer, I can ask a person who can or point them out to you for all your questions.)
4. Are you willing to listen to other's ideas and put in your own as they come?
5. Are you willing to help others new to an encounter with what your class does there and be patient while they learn just as you once did?
6. Have you installed all of the UIs being used for scheduling and running these raids and are you currently using them? (If you just need help knowing how, ask us we'll be happy to help you out.) CT Raid, Guild Event Manager, Ventrillo, etc.

If you answered no to any of these questions, I sincerely ask you to reconsider if end game PVE is something you really want to do. If it is, work at changing your no answers soon. If it's not something you want to do, let your fellow friends know so they can know to look for replacements whenever possible that want to go or decide to wait until there are more that want to do this portion of the game.

End game PVE is something that takes a lot of work and wanting it bad enough to do what is necessary and keep trying even when things get rough, or having people with you who have already done so and are willing to carry you through it.

Best I can tell, we have several types of people in our group even though were all friends.

1. Those that want this PVE and are willing to put blood, sweat, and tears in to do it and do it together as a team, and realize what its going to take to get our group there from the ground up. This group has already specd for it, read up on the encounters, possibly gone with other groups to see how they do it. Their chars are already specd for it and their gear is aimed that direction. They are ready to go.

2. Those that want the PVE just as bad but didnt know what it would take to get our group there from the ground up. This group will likely find out what spec they need to be and what attributes their armor needs most and start working on it. Theyll make sure they can soon answer yes to all of the questions above.

3. Those that arent really as driven on it but will respec and get their character ready or have already done so because their focus is on helping others and they just want to be with the rest of the group whatever it is. All of us are like this sometimes on some things, but those like this all the time on every portion of the game are awesome people, but if it turns into a chore or not something you enjoy, take a break from helping everybody else.

4. Those that want it or want to be with the group but not bad enough to change anything about the way they play or their characters attributes or anything. These are the ones that likely didnt realize the impact their choices were making or that they were hurting others. Hopefully, theyll realize well enough to let others know its not something they want badly enough to change anything, and start cheering mainly from the sidelines. There may be times when theres a slot or two not in use available for them to kick back and tag along, but hopefully theyll also realize that items in these places are in the beginning going to help most those that are in one of the first 3 groups. Keep in mind they should realize that its expected for them to carry group 4 through for the stuff once theyve gotten to their goal to help this group get stuff and have fun too. They should also continue doing other things with you during the week as raids are only happening on weekends.

5. Those that dont really want to do PVE and have just been going because everybody else has and its making them miserable. This group is best to just not go on these. Go out for some PVP or something and join up with the group on other stuff during the week. You may not know it but chances are you making yourself miserable is affecting everybody else. Its not worth it to anybody in any group for you to be doing this to yourself.

6. Those that dont care the effect theyre having on others, they want to do what they want, when they want it, and everybody else be darned. (I dont think we have anybody in this group, but I suppose responses may reveal otherwise and prove me wrong. If you are in this group, please get out of SSX Mannoroth before somebody hits the /gkick button. This is not the way our group of friends works and I dont think theres anybody that would hesitate now days in kicking someone in this group of personality types as it will have a negative effect on anything we do, not just raids or whatever it is now affecting.)

None of groups 1-5 are in the wrong, we all just enjoy different aspects of the game. We still enjoy each others company and will find other things to do together at other times. Getting figured out where each of us stands is I believe a very important aspect of preventing us from driving one another nuts on this stuff.

Let us know if you're in a group that doesn't want to raid at this point, I will work to have you left alone on raid nights. For those that don't answer to themselves before coming on the raid, if you see one that's still should answer no to one or more of the questions above, simply ask them if they've read this... if not, maybe directing them here without pointing out their problem area will be something to help in the right direction.
If you believe someone is a number 6 and hurting our guild, go to one of the officers and tell them. A number 6 should qualify for the no asshat rule, but make sure they truely are a number 6 and not just someone who didn't know something. If you're not sure, wait and get a second opinion.

If someone is just not getting something right, just talk to them and show them how. Remember it may take them a few tries to get it right so be patient. If you can't seem to direct them right, find someone in their class for them that can and ask them to help this person out with X.

[requiemdreamer]

Great post, Mag . The more we expect to do end-game PVE, the more serious people will need to be.

I have a couple suggestions to make the weekend raids a little more serious. I didn't make another topic as I feel this relates to the above comments about taking end-game PVE and UIs seriously.
When invites start for the raid, keep them exclusive to only those that subscribe using Guild Event Manager. This will help to be sure that those wanting to join up have the appropriate UIs. (If in the event that someone logs on just in time and was not able to subscribe for whatever reason, it is easy for the group to see whether or not they have the UI installed, and subscribing won't be required).

When invites start, only allow them for a set ammount of time. If the raid is not ready to head out within the set time (i.e. 45 minutes), break the raid to allow people to move on and do something else instead of waiting a long time for a raid that might not happen. If more people are online later, and everyone wants to start the raid back up, then invites will start up again.

As soon as the raid gets going summons should not be given, simply to keep things moving and not hold everyone up for those who were late. It's not a problem with us warlocks (we toss summons out gladly), it's just a problem when we have to say "hold up, guys. I need a few people to come outside of the instance to help me 'summon."
Of course, this wouldn't be concrete rule. If we are doing MC, we are close to the portal, and someone needs a summon it's not a problem, due to the size of the raid, if a couple people leave for a second to summon.

-Req

[Padishar]

Thx for taking the time to write all this out Mag, I think you bring a very crucial topic to the forfront.
Its great you are illustrating it all out now and dealing with it, before this becomes even more problems occur, for as numbers/raids increase the more alot of this can easily (if not already) becomes an issue and mirroring what req just said, the more serious people need to be about it.

[Brandonheat]

Does this mean you want me to heal?

[Rlyan]

Good post, Mag.

Brandon, I think she's just asking everyone to think about our characters and also about ourselves and how we enjoy playing the game. I personally wouldn't mind respeccing if it meant that those in the guild would be better off in raids, because it's you guys that make this game fun for me. I'm not sure I'd still be playing WoW if I wasn't in SSX.

However, I'm also an advocate of a player's own choice to play the character he or she wishes, the way he or she wishes. Would it be easier if the damage-doing warriors switched to protection? Yes. Would it benefit me and the overall guild raid group if they did so? Without a doubt. Is it my right to force them into respeccing? No.

I think my message is the same as Mag's. If it would make one unhappy to respec, then we'd rather one stay specced the way they are. But one should think about how their decision affects this guild family.

There's no doubt in my mind that respecs are needed. Even when we have a full 20 man group in ZG, we are seriously slacking. We can pawn it off as "it's some peoples' first time here tonight" just so many times. Mag has identified what I believe to be one of our major problems. It's why I show up for ZG raids, but really don't get excited about them anymore.

I would not classify myself as a number 5, but I do get miserable on raids. It's no secret. It's not from a lack of trying. It's from frustration. I see my druid specced and equipped to the best of my abilities, and I'm always on the AH scanning for another piece of armor that would make my restoration abilities better. The frustration comes from particular people, many of whom we've hinted a respec to in the past. I can't tell you how happy Ricky's respec made many of us feel.

In short, people should play the way that makes them happy. I'm not promising I'll be happy for them.

[Gutka]

Whoa!!! what a long post :-) took a slow reader like me quite some time to finish all that's posted.

Honestly, I kind of have no clue what the post was about or directed at.. perhaps I am literally not good.

All I can say is we are approaching full 20 man raid now. A raid requires more team work than have to do with how a player is specced. I agree Brandonheat must stay back doiing heals and cleanse.. that will make my day.. lol... j/p brandon :-)

I will be getting myself a flask of titans to help stay alive a little longer and see if this helps our raid tonight... If i have enough mats. i might make 2.. so Mag can use one...

I am also offering 10 Elixir of Mongoose for the raid tonight.. sorry casters... i don't think i have anything for u guys :-)

[requiemdreamer]

Teamwork is invaluable in a raid, yes. If you look at it one piece at a time it does make sense.
If you're doing MC with 40 people, the teamwork that the raid exhibits plays a great factor towards how well they do.
Ok, so now they are all playing amazingly, and things are working great but they can't beat one of the bosses because there isn't enough DPS, or there aren't enough of a particular class i.e. warlocks (thinking Garr). If they get more of the right classes, they now have the teamwork and the structure to be more successful.
So now they have the teamwork and the structure down... Well, if they have the classes specc'd the right way, they can improve even more. They'll have superb class structure, great talent specc's, and amazing teamwork. That type of a raid is unbeatable.

What I hope to explain is that while it's not too much of a problem right now, given our current status as a guild, it will become increasingly imortant to have the right types of players in order to be successful in our raids. Similarly to what Rlyan was talking about, in MC, several main tanks are needed, expecially for the bosses. In these situations, defensive specc'd warriors are much more beneficial to the group than others. It's just the way it is. What Magdalena is trying to say, I'm assuming, is that given a situation where we need X number of people of a certain class, people should expect to give their spot to a person who would better benefit the raid, that this will become a problem farther down the road, and that people will eventually need to decide whether they want to do PVE with the guild and do what they can to help out, or participate in other guild events.
Again, no one is trying to force anything upon anyone. This, I think, is more of just an awareness thread more than anything.

[Bladesinger]

Being still new to the whole large group raid thing I can't say a whole lot about that. I would like to encourage every member to play the character they want to play and play it how they want to play. We need people in the 1-59 just as much as we need 60s.

Personally, I've found the large group stuff boring as all get out and haven't enjoyed one yet. I'm there to support the guild, learn my place in such events, and hope that time will increase my appreciation of raids. If not, so be it. I know I've got a lot to offer the group in the other activities and want to remind all of our members of that same thing. We may be trying to get a sold raid group together but there are so many other ways to be an active participant that you shouldn't feel forced to raid if you don't want to. Learn what it is you enjoy and do what you can for the group in those capacities.

If you hope to do end-game raiding, expect to be asked to re-spec your character towards large group stuff. Rolling multiple characters to allow multiple different activites, PvP/PvE/Raiding might be a good option to maximize your personaly versatility and enjoyment of the game's facets.

Most of all though, think about what you enjoy the most and play the game that way.

[Brandonheat]

This is why I have come to the decision to speed my mage up to lvl60 ASAP, my pally is not helping the raids much, and I believe a extra mage would go a much longer way then my pally can ever be.

[Gutka]

Pallies help :-), Heal, cleanse... and not dps helps alot .. heheh.. i am getting on ur nerves Andy.. hehe

[Brandonheat]

no, lol i am used to you already. I figure even if i repec, I won't have the gear to even keep up with the healing.

[Yukirina]

On the respeccing aspect of the conversation, i think it would be a great asset if there were seperate posts
and discussions of each class on advice and experiences on what they chose and why they think it works,
though i think these discussions should not only include characters of that class but of other classes
as they offer different perspectives... i came up with this because i've seriously considered respeccing
to protection but would rather do so if i had advice and information to find my way of tanking that makes
me happy and also benefits the guild, also if these posts can include the pros and cons of stats like
+healing/spelldmg vs. mana regen and also of gear worth getting... respeccing and gearing up goes
hand in hand as the gear only augments the abilities of the characters.. sometimes different specs =
different gear

these are just my thoughts

[requiemdreamer]

Yuki, you are more than welcome to get those threads started if you'd like since it seems you know just what you are looking for. Then others can chip in with their input and help you out from there.